To ask why Wayne Couzens needs a defence barrister?

[HeartsAndClubs]

Was just reading the BBC article about how he is due to be sentenced today, and they said that the judge will hand down the sentence after his defence barrister has spoken.

Thing is, he confessed to the murder, so it’s not as if this is a trial where guilt needs to be established and where he would be entitled to a defence to prove his innocence. So why does he need a defence barrister?

I’m glad to hear that LaughinGravy

I don’t want the man to die. That would be an escape. I want him to live a long life, waking up everyday in a cell and knowing that he’ll never leave that place.

@midsomermurderess

Has our education system, or the English one, dropped off a cliff? The amount of utter soul-sapping stupidity one comes across; it makes me want to cry.

If people asking a question you deem to be of soul sapping stupidity makes you want to cry you must lead a very stressful and upsetting life. So the OP asks a question with an obvious answer, so what? We all have things we are ignorant about, I'm sure you do as well. No need to be so fucking patronising.

@midsomermurderess

No, 'TLDR. only idiots don't ask questions' does not cut it. A functioning adult, probably raising children, has no bloody business being this frankly stupid. That's not patronising.

So you think they should remain this stupid for fear of people your ilk shaming them when they try to increase their knowledge? Is that your goal here?

Impressive.

I can guarantee those posters Googled this stuff this morning and didn’t know it before but are now enjoying it trying to make you feel stupid.

Why would know this stuff? They don’t teach it in school!

That is just a ludicrous statement! Are you really saying that you’ve not ever learnt anything since you left school?? —Not looked up any information that interests you, not ever thought, ‘oh, I wonder how X works...’ or ‘I wonder why that is...?’ You’ve never discussed a subject with someone who knows more about it than you do, just for the love of learning? Never become immersed in a topic simply because it’s there and is a vital piece in the puzzle that makes up society?

Law and legislation permeates every aspect of life from the moment we’re born ‘til the day we die, and beyond, and is incredibly important to the workings of every single level of society! Many, many people take a keen interest in it, and even if it’s a layperson’s view it’s still very valuable knowledge to hold.

I think the OP asked a good question

The answer may be blindingly obvious to some, but to others not. Don’t understand why people have to be dicks about it

I agree with a previous poster that I’d rather he did top himself to be honest. while I don’t think many would shed any tears for him if he did, I think that suicide is the coward’s way out.

When e.g. Fred West and Harold shipman killed themselves a lot of their victims’ families felt that they had essentially escaped justice.

As for his relationship with his wife, sadly I imagine that after today the tabloids won’t leave her alone.

I don’t know if there’s already been anything in the press about their relationship, but now that he’s been sent down the tabloids are going to be desperate to bring out his friends, his family etc to be able to publish as much information about him as possible.

And sadly there’s a chance his wife may be considered guilty by association because someone is bound to say that “she must have known what he was like.”

Carboncheque

I’m glad to hear that LaughinGravy

I don’t want the man to die. That would be an escape. I want him to live a long life, waking up everyday in a cell and knowing that he’ll never leave that place.“

I’d rather the millions that will be spent keeping this miserable specimen alive we’re spent on helping victims.

I remember when the trial for Lee Rigby's murder was in the news, someone at work asked me why there was a trial at all, since the two men responsible had been caught on camera killing him so were of course guilty. I told them it was because they'd pleaded not guilty and as such they had the right to a fair trial. Yes, I was surprised they didn't realise that, but I didn't let on I was surprised and I wasn't nasty about it when I explained to them. Sometimes people don't know things that others consider common knowledge. There's no reason to be a bitch about it.

@HeartsAndClubs

I agree with a previous poster that I’d rather he did top himself to be honest. while I don’t think many would shed any tears for him if he did, I think that suicide is the coward’s way out.

When e.g. Fred West and Harold shipman killed themselves a lot of their victims’ families felt that they had essentially escaped justice.

I really hope a very close eye is kept on him to ensure he doesn't get to kill himself. He needs to spend decades facing what he has done and thinking about what a monster he is and how much is hated.

@HeartsAndClubs

Mn at its best as ever I see.

Perhaps the “how stupid do you have to be/are you uneducated” responders would rather I posted. Thread calling for a lynch mob then eh?

If I had known the answer, I wouldn’t have asked the question. And given I didn’t study law, or in fact get a degree, or wasn’t educated in this country, I was asking a genuine question.

For those who answered, thank you. I was wondering, and I don’t imagine I would have been the only one.

I apologise for the fact that I asked the question in the first place, since this is seemingly cause for offence. I will ask MN HQ to remove the thread.

You have NOTHING to apologise for and there's certainly no need for thread to go.

@Carboncheque

’I would not have walked that route at night.’

Really? That’s helpful.

I thought that too, @Carboncheque, but there are a lot of tone deaf comments today and it's not the first and won't be the last, unfortunately.

At least we can be somewhat thankful for an appropriate sentence being imposed.

At least we can be somewhat thankful for an appropriate sentence being imposed.

^True. Anything less would have been a travesty, though, in view of Couzens’ abuse of police powers to commit this dreadful murder.

@Ninkanink

I can guarantee those posters Googled this stuff this morning and didn’t know it before but are now enjoying it trying to make you feel stupid.

Why would know this stuff? They don’t teach it in school!

That is just a ludicrous statement! Are you really saying that you’ve not ever learnt anything since you left school?? —Not looked up any information that interests you, not ever thought, ‘oh, I wonder how X works...’ or ‘I wonder why that is...?’ You’ve never discussed a subject with someone who knows more about it than you do, just for the love of learning? Never become immersed in a topic simply because it’s there and is a vital piece in the puzzle that makes up society?

Law and legislation permeates every aspect of life from the moment we’re born ‘til the day we die, and beyond, and is incredibly important to the workings of every single level of society! Many, many people take a keen interest in it, and even if it’s a layperson’s view it’s still very valuable knowledge to hold.

You really think it's ludicrous that a law-abiding citizen who has never been in trouble with the law, who has had no friends or family in trouble with the law, may not have googled law and legislation relating to what happens in a sentencing of an individual who has pleaded guilty to murder?

Yes, many people do take an interest in it, but calling people who have asked a question about it in good faith 'stupid' is just being smug and superior, and I think those people did do a bit of Googling this morning on sentencing and then decided to laud it over OP.

Law and legislation permeates every aspect of life from the moment we’re born ‘til the day we die, and beyond, and is incredibly important to the workings of every single level of society!

The fact is most people are not interested in law, and see issues relating to the justice system as not relevant to them. That is why the Government has essentially dismantled the legal aid system, leaving citizens who do need to access to the courts, whether for divorce, custody or criminal cases, without recourse to funds for representation. It is a disgraceful devastation of access to justice for all but the most wealthy.
There should be an absolute national outcry against this, but there isn't. People don't see it as relevant to them ( interestingly a Tory MP who voted in these cuts said that in retrospect he wished he hadn't, after he spent his entire life savings defencing himself from a rape accusation as he could not access legal aid).

There was no other sentence that could have been passed, given the abuse of power and his position. I’m another one who thinks he’ll end up topping himself unfortunately, it’s common for these cretins when they get caught.

@LaurieFairyCake

I hope he's got an excellent defence barrister - the very best

So that the conviction is very safe and that evil scumbag has much less room for manoeuvre for an appeal or a lower sentence

The stronger the defence works, the sounder I sleep at night, knowing that justice is fair and accurate.

As you say I hope that this case comes to a completely close, and he gets to rot as long as the criminal justice will let him.

@HeartsAndClubs

I agree with a previous poster that I’d rather he did top himself to be honest. while I don’t think many would shed any tears for him if he did, I think that suicide is the coward’s way out.

When e.g. Fred West and Harold shipman killed themselves a lot of their victims’ families felt that they had essentially escaped justice.

I think he is a coward. He caused self inflicted injuries when in custody and I expect that was either an attempt to kill himself or claim he was mentally unwell. I think he will try to kill him or other people will.

@M4J4 oh I’m certainly not arguing that people should be twatty about OP asking a question! I detest that kind of smugness and agree with you that there’s no need to be condescending/patronising/superior. No one can know everything and questions drive learning.

But plenty of law-abiding people are very interested in the ins and out of how the law works, and lots of people do spend their lives learning continually about topics that interest them and which affect us all. The idea that if it wasn’t covered in school people won’t know it is really quite silly. I mean a lot of people obviously are very ignorant and don’t care/don’t want to know, but many people do know many things because they do care and they do want to know.

@Ninkanink I didn't mean that we only know now what we learned in school (otherwise I'd be out of a job), what I meant was there is no obligation to learn about things like the law, a lot of people do get put off by legalese, and yes, as you say, being condescending to people who ask a question is twatty. So I think we're broadly in agreement

@Nomorepies

To provide mitigation on sentencing? To have advised him up to and including when he pleaded guilty?

Does this really warrant a thread? It's basic.

You've never had the joy of a 'discussion' with someone who'll burble on that "murderers dun need lawyers" because "should just 'ang 'em."

It's tiring but tends to come up every time there's a high profile case. "I just don't understand why they're having a court case when we could be tearing him apart in the street, it seems such a waste of time."

The right sentence was handed out today (for once). I’m pleased that evil monster will be rotting in jail for the rest of his life with no chance of release.

RIP Sarah

@HeartsAndClubs

I agree with a previous poster that I’d rather he did top himself to be honest. while I don’t think many would shed any tears for him if he did, I think that suicide is the coward’s way out.

When e.g. Fred West and Harold shipman killed themselves a lot of their victims’ families felt that they had essentially escaped justice.

I'm not sure on this. Shipman and West left so many unanswered questions behind. Where bodies were, how many other victims, how they got away with it for so long. I suppose there's always the possibility that Wayne has more crimes to answer for.

I always liked how miserable Peter Sutcliffe was at being kept alive.