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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask why Wayne Couzens needs a defence barrister?

150 replies

HeartsAndClubs · 30/09/2021 10:28

Was just reading the BBC article about how he is due to be sentenced today, and they said that the judge will hand down the sentence after his defence barrister has spoken.

Thing is, he confessed to the murder, so it’s not as if this is a trial where guilt needs to be established and where he would be entitled to a defence to prove his innocence. So why does he need a defence barrister?

OP posts:
Lellochip · 30/09/2021 11:27

@Rosehip10

How on earth can the defence argue "no-premeditation"? Shameful.
I think he's trying to argue that whilst the abduction was pre-meditated, the murder was not. Using the fact that he bought the items to dispose of Sarah's body after her death to 'prove' he hadn't planned on killing her.
3scape · 30/09/2021 11:28

It's important that the correct process is followed, all aspects are given consideration. Imagine if this case were reviewed and deemed to be an unsafe prosecution. And he was released?

givemushypeasachance · 30/09/2021 11:30

He's 48 years old, so if he doesn't get a whole life term but gets a 40 years without the possibility of parole in that time, in practice he will be physically incapable of committing a violent crime even if he was granted parole then (and it would be no guarantee he would be given parole). A former police officer who commits a sexual murder against a woman will have to be kept in strict segregation in prison, and that isn't known for being great for your health. He's not going to be walking out of prison.

Jaysmith71 · 30/09/2021 11:31

Everyone gets a fair trial.
Everyone gets a defence.
Everyone benefits from the presumption of innocence.
Everyone. Which means Everyone.

Fernie6491 · 30/09/2021 11:31

It strikes me that someone doing something this vile , then admitting guilt is trying to mitigate, by seeming kind not to put the family through the ordeal of a trial.

What a vile piece of work he is, and possibly the sort to try and top himself in gaol, like Fred West or Harold Shipman.

I hope he goes to gaol for a long time, and they keep a watch on him, to prevent him trying anything like that.

SunshineCake1 · 30/09/2021 11:31

At the trial where I was the victim the defendant asked for the charges to be read out again and he pleaded guilty. Then the defence tried to give reasons for what he's done. Of course none were justified but it was just a way of getting time off. Judge was livid and all he got off was a little for his very late guilty plea to the many charges.

Quartz2208 · 30/09/2021 11:31

It is also important to remember the cab rank rule exists for Barristers which basically is that barrister must take a case that is within their knowledge and expertise provided they are free to do so, no matter how unpalatable the case. If free and capable they simply cannot say no then they have to argue the case to the law within the best of their abilities.

If they dont - and he doesnt have one - the justice system simply doesnt work. Once this sentence is handed down there should be very little room for appeal

@MrsSkylerWhite for the most part they can because it is necessary for the legal/justice system to work. There are strict rules - you cannot give a defence if you know your client is guilty, you should put forward all evidence etc.

The question isnt how could they but how could they not. A strong belief in the function of law and the legal system is at the heart of most people who go into law. And they are vital for it to function in order to ensure a fair justice system

kirinm · 30/09/2021 11:33

I'm very much in the rehabilitation camp with sentencing normally but on this occasion believe this man deserves to die in prison. The huge breach of trust and abuse of power should warrant the harshest punishment in my view.

Ozanj · 30/09/2021 11:36

It’s to make sure he is sentenced properly so he doesn’t get off on appeal.

pelosi · 30/09/2021 11:36

The defence will want him ‘rewarded’ for pleading guilty and not putting the family through a trial.

I hope the judge sees through it.

MrsSkylerWhite · 30/09/2021 11:38

Fernie6491

It strikes me that someone doing something this vile , then admitting guilt is trying to mitigate, by seeming kind not to put the family through the ordeal of a trial.

What a vile piece of work he is, and possibly the sort to try and top himself in gaol, like Fred West or Harold Shipman.

I hope he goes to gaol for a long time, and they keep a watch on him, to prevent him trying anything like that.“

I don’t know. A large (though possibly unreasonable, who knows?) part of me hopes he does. That a society desperate for funding in so many vital services should pay to keep this person in safety and relative comfort for potentially 50 years doesn’t sit easy with me. I suppose the chance of rehabilitation is every convicted person’s right but I believe some people are just beyond it. Just my opinion though 🤷‍♀️

Tinpotspectator · 30/09/2021 11:39

Nothing this man says can be trusted. He is between a rock and a hard place and so he is hardly likely to argue anything which isn't in his interest. He understands the system too, being part of it. He has brought the police service into (more) disrepute and he need a whole life tariff. What's more, he hasn't even explained what's happened, not that his account could be relied upon.

7H9g5Kj · 30/09/2021 11:40

"hiterto good character".... to quote the judge just now

The monster had previously demonstrated his danger to women and was allowed to continue ....WTAF

Original poster
HeartsAndClubs · 30/09/2021 11:40

Mn at its best as ever I see.

Perhaps the “how stupid do you have to be/are you uneducated” responders would rather I posted. Thread calling for a lynch mob then eh?

If I had known the answer, I wouldn’t have asked the question. And given I didn’t study law, or in fact get a degree, or wasn’t educated in this country, I was asking a genuine question.

For those who answered, thank you. I was wondering, and I don’t imagine I would have been the only one.

I apologise for the fact that I asked the question in the first place, since this is seemingly cause for offence. I will ask MN HQ to remove the thread.

OP posts:
7H9g5Kj · 30/09/2021 11:41

*hitherto

M4J4 · 30/09/2021 11:43

@HeartsAndClubs

Mn at its best as ever I see.

Perhaps the “how stupid do you have to be/are you uneducated” responders would rather I posted. Thread calling for a lynch mob then eh?

If I had known the answer, I wouldn’t have asked the question. And given I didn’t study law, or in fact get a degree, or wasn’t educated in this country, I was asking a genuine question.

For those who answered, thank you. I was wondering, and I don’t imagine I would have been the only one.

I apologise for the fact that I asked the question in the first place, since this is seemingly cause for offence. I will ask MN HQ to remove the thread.

I can guarantee those posters Googled this stuff this morning and didn’t know it before but are now enjoying it trying to make you feel stupid.

Why would know this stuff? They don’t teach it in school!

Tinpotspectator · 30/09/2021 11:43

"I suppose the chance of rehabilitation is every convicted person’s right but I believe some people are just beyond it. Just my opinion though "

I agree generally. It's hard to see how a murdering rapist could be trusted not to reoffend, though. I thought the fact he took his family there for a walk a couple of days later showed an extra disregard. How could you rehabilitate that level of hate and disregard for women and their lives?

MrsSkylerWhite · 30/09/2021 11:45

Tinpotspectator

Yes, that chilled me through and through. He was floating.

MrsSkylerWhite · 30/09/2021 11:45

Gloating, not floating!

JosephineDeBeauharnais · 30/09/2021 11:45

It’s very likely that he’ll die in prison. For one, he’s a suicide risk, for another he’s in danger from other, equally violent prisoners with nothing left to lose and ultimately prison is very bad for both mental and physical health. Any underlying conditions he may have will get worse, he will have a long term poor diet, insufficient exercise, poor medical care. His lifespan will be shortened.

BillMasen · 30/09/2021 11:46

@HeartsAndClubs

Mn at its best as ever I see.

Perhaps the “how stupid do you have to be/are you uneducated” responders would rather I posted. Thread calling for a lynch mob then eh?

If I had known the answer, I wouldn’t have asked the question. And given I didn’t study law, or in fact get a degree, or wasn’t educated in this country, I was asking a genuine question.

For those who answered, thank you. I was wondering, and I don’t imagine I would have been the only one.

I apologise for the fact that I asked the question in the first place, since this is seemingly cause for offence. I will ask MN HQ to remove the thread.

Rule 1 on here, ignore the dickheads

You were right to ask about something you didn’t know. Some responses were great and really informative. Others… well that says more about them

SunshineCake1 · 30/09/2021 11:46

Apparently there is worse things than rape and murder s he does t deserve to die in prison Shock[anger]

kirinm · 30/09/2021 11:47

@M4J4 Yep because literally no one else has ever read anything about our criminal justice system. Read about it. One day you may be in it.

kirinm · 30/09/2021 11:48

@SunshineCake1

Apparently there is worse things than rape and murder s he does t deserve to die in prison Shock[anger]
Can I ask where you're reading from? The things I'm following haven't repeated that line (although I've seen it on twitter).
BoredZelda · 30/09/2021 11:48

If you care at all about the justice system, you should be happy he has it. It is vital that everyone has proper legal representation. Yes, even those who have done terrible things.