To say let's all give a quiet wave of support to Rosie Duffield MP

[DeepaBeesKit]

We've got your back Rosie. In the words of Tony Benn, there are millions of people in your wilderness.

Wave of support.

Anyone else?

@Okki

I support her, but I am confused about something. What about Transmen?

They’re women. Whatever gender they like, but sex-wise they’re women.

@WindBlowAutumnDays

Many stood up before her, I appreciate what she has done and hoe she is safe, I am not going to fan girl her, as I am not in a cult.

Many as they may have been, nothing changed. We need to acknowledge and support anyone, male or female, who stands up and states clearly that the emperor is without clothing.

Even if we don't agree with the rest of their politics.

Waves to Rosie and hopes that she remains safe and loud!

@Okki

I support her, but I am confused about something. What about Transmen?

Transmen identify as men, they live in, feel that their gender is masculine. Their sex remains that of a woman. It’s kind to use inclusive phrasing like ‘women including transmen’ or ‘women and transmen’ but it is not ‘kind’ to erase women by using phrases like ‘people with cervixes’.

That phrase isn’t about easing the dysphoria of transmen, who largely remain painfully aware of their female biology; it is about ‘freeing up’ the word woman from its biology in order not to offend the TWAW mindset brigade.

@Mrstamborineman

You would get more “waves” of support if people knew what you were referring to. The problem with assuming everyone knows, is that they don’t.

Oddly, if I don't know what an interesting sounding post is about I use Google...

Also, thanks Rosie.

I will not be expressing my support for Rosie Duffield as I disagree with her.

I thought it was pertinent to say that here, where there very often isn't anyone disagreeing with the Mumsnet status quo (which is very different to the status quo in my real life). Solidarity to the (very few) trans people I know who still read mumsnet.

@Okki

I support her, but I am confused about something. What about Transmen?

Are you really confused?

It's simple. Transmen have a sex and a gender. Their sex was fixed at conception, their gender is a later life choice.

Even if they go so far as to have their female genitalia removed they are female, women by biology, transmen by gender.

That's not too hard to understand and, in my experience, many transmen have no problem with this, knowing it to be their reality.

Oh what a brave new world where a woman, standing up for the rights of women, is vilified by (mostly) men who are calling for the removal of her whip.

It has real echos of burn the witch.

It is not transphobic to name women and to say that only women have uteruses, it is the truth. Trans men are women who identify as men & have the type of body that has a uterus (unless removed for medical reasons). Trans women never have uteruses.

I stand with Rosie Duffield & every other woman who has had enough of this nonsense and is brave enough to put themselves on the line to call it out.

@scaredy42

I will not be expressing my support for Rosie Duffield as I disagree with her.

I thought it was pertinent to say that here, where there very often isn't anyone disagreeing with the Mumsnet status quo (which is very different to the status quo in my real life). Solidarity to the (very few) trans people I know who still read mumsnet.

I actually think there are far more people in your "real life" who are concerned about women's rights being trampled. They're just too afraid of being labelled a bigot and receiving death threats. Its really fucking scary

Go Rosie

Scaredy42

Most of us here are absolutely pro trans equality. I am happy for people to present , live & love however they choose, as long as that doesnt not impinge upon the safety and rights of others.

Providing neutral spaces (eg single cubical toilets) to ensure the safety of transmen & women does not have to come at the expense of existing safe single sex spaces for women.

It really is really fucking scary Holskey. I'm in awe of how brave Rosie is, I would like to say more publicly but I don't because it's too terrifying. How insane is that, thats it's too scary to say that I believe biological women should have protected spaces.

Big wave and high five to Rosie, I think she's admired more than she would realise.

@scaredy42

I will not be expressing my support for Rosie Duffield as I disagree with her.

I thought it was pertinent to say that here, where there very often isn't anyone disagreeing with the Mumsnet status quo (which is very different to the status quo in my real life). Solidarity to the (very few) trans people I know who still read mumsnet.

What status quo? There are many voices on this topic across MN.

It is pertinent to point out that if you mean the 'naughty step' that was created for certain topics, then yes, it could look that way. But as the vast majority of those posting in there didn't want that change you'd have to wonder why it exists. Who lobbied for it, why they did so and why MNHQ felt it necessary?

If the MN status quo is 'TERF' then why hide us all away?

And to wonder just how long it will be before this thread is moved there because somebody who doesn't want this topic to be discussed on the wider read boards reports it and gets it moved - as has happened with many threads, making that specific board look ever more 'singular' and the rest of MN disinterested.

And you obviously haven't been over there for a while, there were at least 3 transwomen posting on a single thread over the weekend.

It helps to actually know what you are talking about

❤️

@CuriousAboutSamphire

Absolutely. I've posted this on AIBU for a reason. The point being to demonstrate the mainstream support for Ms Duffield rather than limiting it to the feminism section where it may be easily dismissed.

"The rights of biological women to single sex spaces" - the only single sex spaces I can think of are female toilets and changing rooms - is that correct? How would a trans woman affect those spaces?

It’s infuriating to be told you are “phobic” or “anti” people wearing/behaving in ways they characterise as different to the way their sex is stereotypically meant to behave. Why can’t people say they know biological facts? Why is saying single sex toilets and changing rooms and groups ARE not only ok but legally supported?

Rosie thank you and I’m so sorry you have to be brave just to tell the truth.

Single sex hospital wards as well as female refuges and prisons, it’s not all about toilets and changing rooms, although they are undoubtedly important. Can you honestly not imagine why women wouldn’t want male bodied people in their space at times of possible vulnerability?

@SummerWhisper

"The rights of biological women to single sex spaces" - the only single sex spaces I can think of are female toilets and changing rooms - is that correct? How would a trans woman affect those spaces?

No it is absolutely not correct, add rape crisis centres, prisons, hospital wards.

Then add sports, sports scholarships, political positions, women's only prizes.

This is not just about toilets. It's about women's rights to have ANYTHING exclusive of men.

@SummerWhisper

"The rights of biological women to single sex spaces" - the only single sex spaces I can think of are female toilets and changing rooms - is that correct? How would a trans woman affect those spaces?

You haven't thought widely enough

Rape crisis centres
Prisons
GP/hospital examination rooms, wards
Personal healthcare

And that's just the ones that spring from very recent media headlines.

Now consider the possible impact of a male bodied person in each of them...

I support Rosie, and applaud her bravery.

I sent a card to her recently, after it emerged she was not going to the conference, but before Keir Starmer's embarassment of an interview with Andrew Marr.

I simply cannot believe political leaders' cowardice and incompetence on this matter. There is a conflict in law and policy that they have allowed to develop, and now they will have to deal with it properly, this time with everyone watching.

🌊

And

👋

@SummerWhisper

"The rights of biological women to single sex spaces" - the only single sex spaces I can think of are female toilets and changing rooms - is that correct? How would a trans woman affect those spaces?

Please do some research on this. Women's safety and achievements are hugely affected

I support and admire Rosie. I'm appalled at the way the party leadership is treating her and women's rights.