Trans by Helen Joyce 99p on Kindle. AIBU...

[HereticFanjo]

... To suggest you read it if you still think Mumsnet is full of meanie transphobes? If you hide any thread that mentions gender identity? If you're politically homeless because politicians like Keir Starmer are too busy arguing about 'cervix havers' to actually lead the opposition against this shitshow government?

This is not the time for ostriching or #BeKind. It's the time to wake up to the harm gender identity politics is doing to our society, democracy and free speech and to so many vulnerable individuals. Especially children with autism and dysphoria and vulnerable women and children who are being browbeaten into allowing men to access their previously semi-safe spaces.

Stop relegating this stuff to FWR. The opposition parties are devouring themselves over this and losing women voters by the thousand. Meanwhile the Tories are merrily destroying our public services.

@Denyingbleedingobvious

Request it at your library *@Furries*

I just downloaded Borrow Box - it’s a good place to start!

Good idea, thanks - will look into that.

Although the book is no longer 99p, I can assure you it is worth a read. I bought it full price and will be passing my copy on to an interested friend. I'm not really interested in debating the issue on this thread - I just want more people to be aware of what is going on.

I'm genuinely worried Labour are making themselves unelectable for the next decade or beyond. Can you imagine the carnage if we leave the current government in power with a vast majority? Led by a man who couldn't even care for his wife when she was undergoing cancer treatment? Who doesn't want to publicly support his own children?

Why would this man care for your family or mine when he doesn't even care for his own? And the opposition parties are letting him carve up the NHS unchecked because they're too busy collecting virtue cookies on Twitter.

@Whitefire I was reacting to this:

This is not the time for ostriching or #BeKind It's the time to wake up to the harm gender identity politics is doing to our society, democracy and free speech and to so many vulnerable individuals Especially children with autism and dysphoria and vulnerable women and children who are being browbeaten into allowing men to access their previously semi-safe spaces

@likeafishneedsabike piss off. I am a woman and I couldn’t be more invested in promoting women’s rights. This thread has nothing to do with women's rights and everything to do with spreading ignorance, hatred and poison.

Anyways, I’ve long since learned my lesson - that it’s largely pointless ( and completely mentally and emotionally draining ) arguing with people on this issue on here. BUT I wanted to stand up and be counted, since the comments on this thread are so skewed towards intolerance.

I hope anyone who comes across this thread will see that not all of us on mumsnet feel this way. Not all women/ feminists feel this way, and I will continue to assert my voice of opposition to transphobia and gender essentialism in all its forms.

[quote Bizawit]@likeafishneedsabike piss off. I am a woman and I couldn’t be more invested in promoting women’s rights. This thread has nothing to do with women's rights and everything to do with spreading ignorance, hatred and poison.

Anyways, I’ve long since learned my lesson - that it’s largely pointless ( and completely mentally and emotionally draining ) arguing with people on this issue on here. BUT I wanted to stand up and be counted, since the comments on this thread are so skewed towards intolerance.

I hope anyone who comes across this thread will see that not all of us on mumsnet feel this way. Not all women/ feminists feel this way, and I will continue to assert my voice of opposition to transphobia and gender essentialism in all its forms.[/quote]
Okay.
Your ideas would be better received without the emojis and the ‘piss off’ first. Something like ‘I’ve read this book from cover to cover and fundamentally disagree with it because ……’
Surely if you have issue with the book and the ideologies it promotes, encourage others to read it so that we can all engage in a healthy debate around women’s rights and gender politics. Absolutism is a dangerous road to take.
Could you please recommend a book which would represent a different side of the debate and provide balance?

@Gorl

I hide every thread mentioning gender identity because I don’t want to read what transphobes have to say, so not sure your advice is any good to me.

And yet you opened, read and responded to this one.

[quote Bizawit]@likeafishneedsabike piss off. I am a woman and I couldn’t be more invested in promoting women’s rights. This thread has nothing to do with women's rights and everything to do with spreading ignorance, hatred and poison.

Anyways, I’ve long since learned my lesson - that it’s largely pointless ( and completely mentally and emotionally draining ) arguing with people on this issue on here. BUT I wanted to stand up and be counted, since the comments on this thread are so skewed towards intolerance.

I hope anyone who comes across this thread will see that not all of us on mumsnet feel this way. Not all women/ feminists feel this way, and I will continue to assert my voice of opposition to transphobia and gender essentialism in all its forms.[/quote]
You're not really arguing though, you are telling someone to piss off. My experience of posters on MN is that they are very keen on looking at the evidence, on evaluating it and thinking about it. All good qualities. If you genuinely have points to make please make them, with evidence. Being rude to another poster who has been perfectly pleasant doesn't say much for whatever you are trying to argue for.

This thread has nothing to do with women's rights and everything to do with spreading ignorance, hatred and poison

Can you please reference which parts of the book you disagree with, and why?

Gosh, I wonder why someone who tells others to "piss off" finds it pointless arguing their position on here

[quote Bizawit]@Whitefire I was reacting to this:

This is not the time for ostriching or #BeKind It's the time to wake up to the harm gender identity politics is doing to our society, democracy and free speech and to so many vulnerable individuals Especially children with autism and dysphoria and vulnerable women and children who are being browbeaten into allowing men to access their previously semi-safe spaces[/quote]
I love emojis but I do quite like people using words too so I look forward to seeing your reasoned responses over in FWR if you can be bothered.

Meanwhile I still recommend this book to everyone. I'm very happy to read equally well-researched books from your perspective @Bizawit. Sadly it isn't a perspective based on reason so much as feelz and double think, which is maybe why it's hard to find opposing equivalents of Helen Joyce's awesomely well-researched book.

Just bought this at full price as I missed out on the Kindle deal. Looking forward to reading it and understanding more, thanks for the recommendation.

Added to my wish list. Thanks for the recommendation.

I would love to know where the "spreading of ignorance, hatred and poison" is on this thread. Or is this just another attempt to silence women who dare to question the fallacy that a man can magically turn into a woman whenever he feels like it, and vice versa? Or those who care about the vulnerable in our society who will inevitably experience an increase in violence and abuse as a result of allowing men into women's protected spaces?

Also, philosophical question that is massively off-topic, but how do you "spread ignorance"? Isn't that an oxymoron?

I will continue to assert my voice of opposition to transphobia and gender essentialism in all its forms.

I - along with most women I'm sure - don't know or care what 'gender essentialism' is. But I do know, with absolute conviction, that I do not want transwomen, aka as people with a penis, in women-only spaces.

The Bridge Theatre has made their toilets gender neutral. Last time I was there, in the 3 minutes I was in what used to be the Ladies, two perfectly normal men came in to use the loo. Nothing Trans about them - they were just using their 'right' to barge into a women's space.

It's the thin end of the wedge. I read that there are already schools with gender neutral toilets. It's scary.

I will continue to assert my voice of opposition to transphobia and gender essentialism in all its forms.

I’d suggest you’d first want to check what gender essentialism actually is. I think you will discover that many of the feminists on MN fight against gender essentialism in any form. I have seen this term used by those activists who actually think they understand what it means.

Your use of it here shows you don’t and are simply repeating falsehoods picked up by prominent trans activists.

Perhaps you will also realise your inference of transphobia is based on the same falsity. The chair of the EHRC has made a statement that women fighting to retain spaces for their needs, fairness in sports, the ability to describe themselves is not transphobic.

But if you are standing against real transphobia, I am sure plenty of us will join you. After all, many have loved ones who are trans and wish to ensure they are protected and cared for.

However, if you are asserting that this book is transphobic (particularly without reading it and making a critical analysis of your own), why do you fear facts being presented. If the narrative that goes with the facts is wrong, where are the academic ‘take downs’? The critiques that have been well supported and given pause for thought.

I have not seen any. Please post the links so we can read them.

Otherwise, you are again simply regurgitating activist trope.

I thought "gender essentialism" included changing one's body to conform with society's ideas of which bodies "match" certain genders.

It's showing as 8.95 on kindle and I'm skint. Boooooo

Ohhh I missed it. I have had it on my wish list! Just checked and it's back to 8.99.

[quote Waitwhat23]@Zotter

womansplaceuk.org/references-to-removal-of-single-sex-exemptions/

Stonewall calls for the end to single sex spaces -

• 'A review of the Equality Act 2010 to include ‘gender identity’ rather than ‘gender reassignment’ as a protected characteristic and to remove exemptions, such as access to single-sex spaces'

www.stonewall.org.uk/cy/node/9461[/quote]
Thank you. I wasn’t sure whether some trans activists groups were calling for removal of single sex exemptions in the Equality Act. I would
possibly be ok with some form of self ID but only if the existing single sex exemptions - which must be a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim - in the Equality Act are kept.

The issue with this is that we now have convicted sex offenders who are biologically male (including the creature who murdered Holly and Jessica) self identifying as women and being moved into women's prisons.

@HereticFanjo, I have been following the whole debate a little and downloaded Joyce’s book last night after you sharing was 99p yesterday, thank you.

The current U.K. transgender prison policy framework updated in 2019 seems to have more safeguards in place making it unlikely now a convicted sex offender who is biologically male will be placed in a women’s prison as happened with Karen White. I appreciate the strengthening of these safeguards probably came about due to advocacy.

@Zotter I should have also linked this- it's a useful resource in regards to prisons - www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/

@Zotter I hope those safeguards are in place now but I'm not convinced. There is a thread in FWR about Edinburgh Rape Crisis where women who have been raped are as likely to be persecuted for wrongthink as receive support. The new CEO is a trans woman. Interestingly her partner is making a lot of money while grass roots women's organisations are being denied funding. Glinner has done a lot of digging into this. Follow the money as the saying goes.

[quote Waitwhat23]@Zotter I should have also linked this- it's a useful resource in regards to prisons - www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/[/quote]
Thanks. I don’t think I agree with that organisation saying that no biological male should ever be placed in a woman prison. Would depend on the crime for me, sexual or violent offences should remain in male prison. I do agree when a biological male is arrested, commits a crime or is imprisoned, he should be always be recorded as male as important for correct data.

The current policy framework is when a prisoner is transgender they will first be allocated to either a male or female prison based on their legal gender. Then the prison is required to organise a ‘case board’ to identify what needs to happen. The ‘local case board’ may make recommendations about where the person should be housed (i.e. in the men’s or women’s estate). If a trans woman or trans male wishes to be placed in the prison estate not according to their biological sex then the local case board must pass the case on to the ‘complex case board’ who are the only ones who can agree for a prisoner to be moved to the male or female prison. Quoting from the link below, ‘ The task of the Complex Case Board is to determine what risks a prisoner may face and what risk they may pose to others, and whether those risks are best managed in either the male or female prison estate. A Complex Case Board can also decide whether further risk assessments are required.

According to the Ministry of Justice equalities data for England and Wales, as of 2019, there were 34 trans prisoners held in prisons for women and 129 in prisons for men.

Full details of the process can be found here www.prisonersadvice.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/PAS-TRANSGENDER-TOOLKIT-PDF-VERSION.pdf

[quote HereticFanjo]@Zotter I hope those safeguards are in place now but I'm not convinced. There is a thread in FWR about Edinburgh Rape Crisis where women who have been raped are as likely to be persecuted for wrongthink as receive support. The new CEO is a trans woman. Interestingly her partner is making a lot of money while grass roots women's organisations are being denied funding. Glinner has done a lot of digging into this. Follow the money as the saying goes.[/quote]
Thanks. Will read up.

Helen's book is not about trans people. It is about the way an idea has spread quickly, without factual content or discussion. She says that on the first page. A person can't argue against her book without actually reading it. It is a good book and very readable.

When I think of all of the dross that I have waded through on this subject to see if there was a point somewhere arguing effectively that the earth is flat. If you haven't her book, then there is nothing to say.

I do agree when a biological male is arrested, commits a crime or is imprisoned, he should be always be recorded as male as important for correct data.

Agreed. However in Scottish prisons in particular, males with a GRC are seen as legally female and recorded as such. The current rules for the reporting of crimes follow guidelines which mean that those convicted or alleged are referred to by their gender, not sex. In the court system, the same applies leading to women having to refer to the male who raped them as 'her'.

There is a massive over-representation of sex offender transwomen who are housed in the female estate.

The recent judicial review acknowledged the threat to women as well as the fear caused by being incarcerated with males but concluded that it is more important for the transwomen's well being to socialise with women, than the women's wellbeing.