It shouldn’t be said that “only women have a cervix”.

[Paddingtonsmarmaladesandwiches]

Watching Keir Stammer on Marr this morning scrambling to answer whether or not it is transphobic to say “only women have a cervix” was the final nail in the coffin for me this morning with Labour. In the aftermath of The Lancet calling women, “bodies with vaginas”, I think I’ve finally figured out that the current belief system is that transwomen are women, but women who were observed female at birth are “bodies with vaginas”. Clearly Labour aren’t in need of the votes of bodies with vaginas, brains and a spine.

@GivenUpEntirely you have expressed my thoughts exactly. I absolutely despair

@Saltedcaramel78

I don't know enough about this and find trying to understand trans issues without getting caught up into the two extremist views really tricky. Apologies if this has already been discussed or is obvious. I feel like the conversation tends to be dominated by transwoman.

My question is- what about trans men? If you're biologically female and transitioned, you might still be in a situation where you call yourself male, but still have a female reproductive system which will need healthcare. Is this something being considered?

Salted, this was your original question.

To be honest I'm not sure we have the answer to that, I guess that would be up to the trans person themselves.

Do they wish to acknowledge in a medical setting that they are still, and will always be biologically female and this will affect much of their medical treatment.
Of course if they request it they can be referred to as male, but in reality the doctors need to know their biology.

I admit that I have been having little pangs of nostalgia for the days of Maggie Thatcher. Can you imagine her reaction to all of this rubbish?

@SammyScrounge

I admit that I have been having little pangs of nostalgia for the days of Maggie Thatcher. Can you imagine her reaction to all of this rubbish?

I was thinking recently I would love to hear Joan Rivers' take on it all .

Would have been amazing!

Well thanks Keir for confirming that Labour will never be back in power!

In the aftermath of The Lancet calling women, “bodies with vaginas”, I think I’ve finally figured out that the current belief system is that transwomen are women, but women who were observed female at birth are “bodies with vaginas”

Yup. You've worked it out.

Men of course are still men.

He’s a disgrace of a penis haver

Brilliant

I also wonder if we're deluding ourselves by arguing that Labour have lost women's votes? Do enough women (and men) even care? Or even if they do, is it enough to stop them from voting Labour if they always have? I wonder if Labour have done any proper number crunching of how/where this might lose them votes and either don't care or have concluded that young/urban votes are more valuable to them?

Either way, I'm sure KS's view is driven by opportunism rather than principle. Shameful.

My question was just simply that if you've transitioned and have a female reproductive system, it may be upsetting to have to refer to yourself as female when you now consider yourself male, that's all.

Nobody is making anyone refer to themselves as anything at all. The issue is demanding that other people (including medical professionals) refer to you as something you are biologically not. If a transman wanted to book themselves in for a smear test, they could just say they were a transman, which would make it clear they were female-bodied. And presumably their gp would have it on record that they were biologically female anyway. And any communications from medical services can say 'Women and transwomen" or "Females". 'Female at birth' is surely a bit redundant, as you can't actually stop being female.

Labour lost me ages ago, its such a shame I voted Labour all my life but him kicking Corbyn out, purging the socialists and standing against womens rights has done it for me.

at the last local elections I voted TUSC and I voted for count binface and some animal rights woman/party for the london mayor/assembly.

can not vote for labour at all, I hope that guy who stands for womens rights gets elected leader of The Greens then at least I will have somewhere to go.

@ponyexpress22

Perhaps we should all start using equally wrong terms for men, person with testicles, person with penis...... If women are denied their correct terms let's deny men theirs. Play them at their own game.

persons with a penis could be called "Dicks" .

was the final nail in the coffin for me this morning with Labour.
Sure it was

@Saltedcaramel78, unfortunately a number of women on MN have been subjected to the abuse and intimidation of TRAs both online and in real life so your both sides/extremist comment is jarring.

Have you seen the masses of threatening and abusive tweets JKR got for her there used to be a word to describe that tweet? That's what women who speak out against gender ideology even in the mildest of terms are subjected to.

There is a long running thread on the FWR Sex and Gender Board called 'Break it down for me' that may help you.

On the subject of transmen, it is very obvious and notable that whenever anything to do with trans is being discussed those who support the ideology and TRAs always, always, always start whatever they say with Transwomen are women they then burble on a bit and then as a hurried afterthought intone that Transmen are men, the reason being that transwomen are male and males come first always, they also don't highlight transmen much because they don't want to upset men, it's age old misogyny and the patriarchy in full glory.

I wonder if Labour have done any proper number crunching of how/where this might lose them votes and either don't care or have concluded that young/urban votes are more valuable to them?

I think Labour have cynically decided that enough women will be screwed over by a continued Tory government that we'll have to vote Labour even if it goes against our own interests.

The root cause of all this madness is that some men are identifying into a group (women) that they (the men) are then insisting is redefined to be something other than the group they want to identify into. These men are literally changing the definition of women to suit their needs. Fuck off men.

[quote Saltedcaramel78]@beastlyslumber

I think this is going to be my last reply on this.

I have said many times, this is something I don't know enough about. Clearly you do, and it seems like you're assuming I'm some kind of troll or someone slyly trying to get a reaction or undermine the thread. I'm not - I am trying to understand more about it.

I had a genuine question about transmen. When I've tried to understand more about this online, all is I see is angry threads, using references I don't understand, referring to people and situations I'm not aware of. If it's only one side being aggressive (i.e pro-trans? if that's the right term), then apologies, I'm happy to say I'm totally wrong.

Of course only women have cervixes, and safe spaces need to be kept for women only. HOWEVER what I have been trying to understand if their are some nuances to this, which is very hard to understand and get past the aggressive language online to see if there are any genuine arguments.[/quote]
@Saltedcaramel78 I answered your question about transmen, as have many others.

all is I see is angry threads, using references I don't understand, referring to people and situations I'm not aware of. If it's only one side being aggressive (i.e pro-trans? if that's the right term), then apologies, I'm happy to say I'm totally wrong.

To my knowledge it is completely one-sided, yes. But if you feel that the violence is equally coming from women I am very interested to understand where you've got that impression. I do concede that many women are very, very angry about this. But I think the threats and violence is all going in one direction.

I highly recommend Helen Joyce's book 'Trans' which is 99p on kindle today. That might help you to work out the nuances of this debate. She's done a load of podcasts too, if that's more your speed - I recommend the one she did with Brendan O'Neill.

My question is- what about trans men? If you're biologically female and transitioned, you might still be in a situation where you call yourself male, but still have a female reproductive system which will need healthcare. Is this something being considered?

As harsh as it is, I think on a medical setting you need to get over the fact that you are biologically male/female and leave what you identify as at the doctor's door.

Identify as "she" in any other aspect of your life (in ways that don't encroach on WRs anyway) if you so wish but in a medical setting, it should be factually correct and you should be noted as male on medical records. There's nothing to say it can't be noted on there that you are a trans person but your biological sex should be correct so that things don't get missed.

This is why YET AGAIN it comes back to everyone else needing to protect the feelings of transmen/women by changing the language we use to "cervix havers" to avoid transmen getting missed for cervical screenings when really the logical solution to that issue is for them just to have their correct sex noted on their medical records.

So should transmen have to refer to themselves as women (which I imagine would be traumatic and upsetting), to access the healthcare they'll need if they still have a female reproductive system?

We’ve already had several cases of transmen, who on official records have their gender or sex recorded as man/male and have not alerted healthcare professionals to this discrepancy, and have therefore not received the care they needed, with tragic consequences. We have also had transmen complaining of being misgendered or triggered when they do receive healthcare appropriate to their physiology.

Ultimately, it’s up to transmen to decide individually for themselves what they consider to be more important- receiving the healthcare that is appropriate to their physiology, or having their gender identity validated. The decision, and therefore the problem to be dealt with, is theirs and theirs alone. It may be a difficult one, and it may make them uncomfortable, but that isn’t a problem that all womankind should have to solve on their behalf by being forced to accept referred to as bodies with vaginas, or by not being allowed to say that only women have a cervix.

Meant to post this with my above comment…

1000x YABU but it won’t make any difference 😢😢😢😡😡😡😡. This is not about erasing women, it’s about expanding the category of woman in a way that recognises diversity and is inclusive. Not everyone’s body is the same and not every experience of being a woman is the same. It’s not the terrible concept you think it is.

You say “transwomen are women, but women who were observed female at birth are bodies with vaginas”. No no no no no. I was “observed female at birth” and I am a woman. I also have a body with a vagina.

Most people who have bodies with vaginas are women, a v small minority are not. Some people are women but don’t have a body with a vagina.

It’s really not hard at all if you choose to open your mind and teeny- tiny wee bit and accept that not everyone in the world is exactly like you.

Get the f over it.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe

I am going to write to my MP, Chris Evans. I've not met him but have corresponded with him over the years and found him decent enough. He deserves to know why he can never have my vote again.

I emailed the labour party HQ and told them they will no longer get my vote, the last time they released a statement pretending women dont have rights.

tell them all to get lost, all 51% of the population should tell all the main parties to get stuffed

Depressing and enraging in equal measures. And when I think of what's happening with the gaslighting of children about all this .......

@Paddingtonsmarmaladesandwiches

Helen Joyce’s amazing book “Trans” is on Amazon promotion today for 99p on Kindle. Helen gets a similar amount from sales as if it were full price. If you fancy a reasoned and researched analysis of gender identity I’d recommend highly. Examines this dog whistle narrative of “most discriminated section of society” with data and facts. Shocking, I know!

Thanks. Have just bought a copy. Less money to Amazon….

@supermoonrising

was the final nail in the coffin for me this morning with Labour. Sure it was

Yes, it was tbh. I live in Scotland though and have other options as someone kindly pointed out.

Saltedcaramel78

If you would like to find out more about how we got to this point then the book "Trans" by Helen Joyce is on offer on Kindle today for 99p. It explains the situation with clarity.