To think that 'eat less move more', everything in moderation and CICO is total bollox?

[Honestopinion23]

CICO stands for calories in vs calories out by the way.
I often read the weight loss section on here. Every day there are people embarking on any number of diets and body overhauls and I reckon about 95% of them are unsuccessful. Calorie counting, shake diets, you name it, people always gain the weight back before long. Even celebrities who seem to have done well with weight loss eventually gain it back, e.g. Pauline Quirke. I am watching that new amazon show with Melissa McCarthy and she is also back to being around the same size she was before starting her weight loss. Lisa Riley is another one who lost a lot of weight and most of it is back now. Clearly it's not working and people are making money out of telling fat people that they can be thin if only they want it bad enough or try hard enough. The scientific research shows that once you are morbidly obese, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of getting to and maintaining a normal BMI without surgery. Yes, there will no doubt be people popping up here saying they did just that but you are the exception.

The idea that if you just eat less than you burn is also flawed when a) your body adapts to lower amounts. For instance, those who have gastric bypass and eat v low calories forever still tend to be overweight/mildly obese because their bodies just can't get to a low BMI and b) you're fighting against intense hunger urges that someone who has always been normal weight just can't imagine dealing with.

If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.

@Wroxie

The utter bollocks about weight loss in this thread (from people firmly stating that their CICO/Low Carb/whatever diet works) is right up there with anti-vax sentiment in terms of pig-ignorant anti-science nonsense.

Diets don't work 95% of the time. The weight you are at now is, within 5%, the weight you will always be. The 5% who do lose weight permanently were either temporarily fat due to medication or will spend the rest of their lives obsessively maintaining a difficult and restrictive diet. If you say you are the exception to this, I don't believe you.

Oh good. I don't have a six figure salary, or twins, or five bathrooms, or supermodel good looks, so I've been feeling a bit excluded in the "mythical Mumsnet people who don't exist in real life" debate. But now I, too, am a Mumsnet unicorn! A pig ignorant, anti-science one, apparently (I am fully vaccinated, though). But as one who's maintained a significant loss for ten years - pregnancy and a little bit of lockdown weight notwithstanding, which is slowly coming off now - I'll take that.

If it helps, I didn't do it to make you angry...

@Taiyo

I would never want to have the surgery.

The people I know who have managed to lose weight and keep it off are those who exercise a lot. I mean people who got into running or cycling and go pretty much every day. It seems to make a bigger difference than what you eat.

Yes, losing the weight is all about diet, (i.e. finding a way to eat that works for you and tricks your body in letting go of those fat cells, which it really prefers not to) but keeping it off is all about exercise.

That's very simplistic, but it's accurate.

What I actually meant is that I would find lifelong calorie counting grim and soul destroying. I’m not obese, my BMI is 27.5. I eat healthily and exercise but as I said earlier I have an underactive thyroid.

@CounsellorTroi

The problem is that people don’t keep doing it once they have lost weight. The type of people for whom CICO works (like me) have to continue to count calories for the rest of their lives (like I do) to maintain.

How does one live like that? How does one manage socialising/holidays/working lunches that sort of thing?

I build a 700 cal reserve per week to cover social lunches. But once there I’ll try to be sensible with my order - so one or two gins with slimline tonic, soup starter, main with sauce on the side, and a coffee instead of dessert. If I have social lunches everyday (which I did last week) I won’t eat breakfast & will eat an undressed raw salad for dinner if I’m still hungry It’s probably something naturally slim people do instinctively.

I should point out, however, that despite having 2 metabolic diseases and having a (confirmed by consultant) reduced metabolism I can still maintain my weight on 1800-2100 cals per day. I like to go for a fast paced walk everyday - usually at least 60mins. And will do pilates 3 times a week on top of this.

I agree with you. My husband has been underweight all his life - nothing medically wrong, he's just like that. He's 5'8 and weighs 7 1/2 stone. He gets through three packets of caramel bars and at least one large packet of chocolate biscuits a week, and he fries all his food - even oven chips.

I, on the other hand, gain weight at the drop of a hat. Even at my lightest during our marriage I have always weighed more than him, and I am 4 inches shorter.

It's bloody annoying TBH watching him scoff all that stuff and not gain weight.

@CounsellorTroi

What I actually meant is that I would find lifelong calorie counting grim and soul destroying. I’m not obese, my BMI is 27.5. I eat healthily and exercise but as I said earlier I have an underactive thyroid.

I have Hashimotos and PCOS and calorie counting is the only thing that works to keep my bmi under 25. Logging calories also helps me eat healthier as the accountability means I’m less likely to reach for unhealthy carby foods - which is so tempting with pcos. And doing this has meant by brain fog and depression has also lifted.

I guess different things work for different people but don’t knock it until you’ve tried it. There isn’t another diet out there that works for people with reduced metabolisms who get cravings too.

@Wroxie

The utter bollocks about weight loss in this thread (from people firmly stating that their CICO/Low Carb/whatever diet works) is right up there with anti-vax sentiment in terms of pig-ignorant anti-science nonsense.

Diets don't work 95% of the time. The weight you are at now is, within 5%, the weight you will always be. The 5% who do lose weight permanently were either temporarily fat due to medication or will spend the rest of their lives obsessively maintaining a difficult and restrictive diet. If you say you are the exception to this, I don't believe you.

Haha! Whether you believe people or not isn't the measure of whether it's true or not

A high failure rate doesn't mean that nobody changes their weight permanently. Many people do, completely regardless of those two conditions you think are necessities at the end of your post.

Don't believe me? So what?

Not so much if your body has adapted itself so that you could eat 700 calories and still not lose anything.

Wow. This thread is mind boggling.

Do people really believe nonsense like this? Your body adapting to not lose weight while only consuming 700 calories?!

Christ. No wonder many people find it hard to lose weight.

I think we can assume that previously morbidly obese celebrities who are now slim have had surgery.
It is much easier for slim people to stay slim than obese people to get slim, that is where some of the CiCo crap stems from.

The 5% who do lose weight permanently were either temporarily fat due to medication or will spend the rest of their lives obsessively maintaining a difficult and restrictive diet. If you say you are the exception to this, I don't believe you.

But that ignores the huge swathes of people who are on a restrictive diet/exercise regime in order to stay slim.

@bananafish

Yes, losing the weight is all about diet, (i.e. finding a way to eat that works for you and tricks your body in letting go of those fat cells, which it really prefers not to) but keeping it off is all about exercise

Why is it different? Why can't you just keep to the 'hey body! Fuel yourself from fat stores!' diet?

True OP.
Hacking hunger would seem closer to a solution for me but at the monent im 15lbs overweight. I lost weight doing keto but it was hard because i love carbs so its not sustainable. I want to try and lose weight again, just low carb not keto but i think the obsessiveness of keto helped me whereas the moderation of low carb seems hard to get behind. I will do it tomorrow. I will.

I think it was Liz Hurley who said she sometimes cries from hunger because of her strict regime.

@CounsellorTroi

What I actually meant is that I would find lifelong calorie counting grim and soul destroying. I’m not obese, my BMI is 27.5. I eat healthily and exercise but as I said earlier I have an underactive thyroid.

I haven't needed to calorie count etc for ages. I got used to portion sizes without measuring, got used to how to eat well, and now it's just how I do it. I know what sort of things to eat for meals and I know how to eat "around" a party or whatever.

I enjoyed food less when I was heavier, because I was eating my feelings, not for the taste, and my palette was terrible at the time. No appreciation for delicate or subtle flavours. All heavy salt and sugar.

My weight has fluctuated a little over the years (and I always know why, when it has, even if it seems unfair!) and I have a few lockdown pounds that are coming off now, but I've never gone anywhere near back to my heaviest weight.

@SofiaMichelle

Not so much if your body has adapted itself so that you could eat 700 calories and still not lose anything.

Wow. This thread is mind boggling.

Do people really believe nonsense like this? Your body adapting to not lose weight while only consuming 700 calories?!

Christ. No wonder many people find it hard to lose weight.

I agree. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

@CounsellorTroi

I think it was Liz Hurley who said she sometimes cries from hunger because of her strict regime.

She's not trying to maintain a healthy weight, she's trying to maintain an insane beauty standard.

@MrsHood

So what’s the answer then?

Sating hunger with fat not carbs?

@Confrontayshunme

I think you are right but for different reasons. I started eating whole foods plant based as a friend recommended it. Basically an oil free, unprocessed diet of fruit, veg, starch and whole grain. I eat huge amounts of food (including pasta and potatoes and dark chocolate) and it is really so easy to keep my weight down. I stopped counting calories and eat without feeling hungry. I would guess I eat 1800-2000 and burn around 2000 as I am more muscular and active. So if I lose weight at all, it is slow and manageable. I have lost 4 inches from around my waist and stopped my blood pressure medication which is a blooming miracle. The MacDougall Programme and Forks Over Knives are good information about it.

Pasta isn’t unprocessed, surely?

It’s not that any of these diets don’t work. It’s the fact that time and time again we try and tackle the symptom rather than the cause. Being substantially overweight rarely happens because someone is greedy and lazy. Yes you might pile on a few extra pounds but rarely double your body weight.

It’s a mixture of having a food focused society, emotional associations (giving a kid a bar of chocolate as a reward/an ice cream to stop them crying is a slippery slope) types of food (esp at cheaper price points), poverty, hormonal balance reflecting genetics, wellness Esp gut health, individual metabolism, environment and mental health, technology, societal attitudes, monetisation of weight management and mental health with knock on physical effects. Time available for exercise -I’m not talking a hour in the gym 3times a week, sustained and daily intetgrated exercise, most obviously walking everywhere, Unless all these are addressed once you stop treating the symptoms the “illness” returns.

I feel that most the CICO concept holds true for most humans, with some additional (but mostly small differences for genetics)

Having said that, a 5% difference in energy efficiency would add up to a lot of stored fat over time, which then reduces mobility and motivation, encouraging the person to become more sedentary and reduces lean muscle mass, which in turn reduces efficiency.

I would like to see some more research done on epigenetics: Does starvation across generations of malnourished ancestors produce genetic changes which effect on the energy efficiency of offspring?

I would also like to see similar research on how maternal diet in pregnancy affects the energy efficiency of offspring.

I do agree though that it can be very difficult to maintain a healthy weight.

It IS the answer, and isn't bollocks. Unfortunately most people just don't have the motivation or will power to keep it up in the long term. They focus on losing weight, but not then maintaining their new, healthy weight.

@LindaEllen

It IS the answer, and isn't bollocks. Unfortunately most people just don't have the motivation or will power to keep it up in the long term. They focus on losing weight, but not then maintaining their new, healthy weight.

The question really is why they don't have the motivation and will power. And the answer is down to what they're eating, rather than how much.

It's the vital part that you, and many, neglect.

@CinnamonJellyBeans

I feel that most the CICO concept holds true for most humans, with some additional (but mostly small differences for genetics)

Having said that, a 5% difference in energy efficiency would add up to a lot of stored fat over time, which then reduces mobility and motivation, encouraging the person to become more sedentary and reduces lean muscle mass, which in turn reduces efficiency.

I would like to see some more research done on epigenetics: Does starvation across generations of malnourished ancestors produce genetic changes which effect on the energy efficiency of offspring?

I would also like to see similar research on how maternal diet in pregnancy affects the energy efficiency of offspring.

I do agree though that it can be very difficult to maintain a healthy weight.

Have you read Why We Eat (Too Much) by Andrew Jenkinson? He touches on epigenetics. It's a fascinating area.

@LINDAELLEN yeh that's the whole point, it only works short term because the desire to eat remains

I wish that the people pouring scorn on this thread would at least just watch that Zoe Harcombe video linked above. It's all a con and those who are lucky enough not to be too adversely affected by the obesogenic environment we live in tell themselves that this is due to their hard work and discipline, whereas the lazy fat pigs could easily do something about their weight if only they tried. Well, if cico was remotely effective, then we wouldn't have the problems that we have today.

It's easy to tell yourself that body weight is something entirely within someone's control but it's just not true. By doing that, big food corporations don't have to confront what their ultra-processed high carb rubbish is doing to the population. The NHS can blame individuals when its shitty advice doesn't work. This is the same NHS with costa coffee franchises in its heart-wards.

Instead, people get stuck in cycles of self-hate and convince themselves that the way to lose weight is to go on a shake-diet of artificial rubbish or inject and appetite-suppressing pen into their stomachs. And then they hate themselves even more when it inevitably doesn't work and probably believe it when some smug poster on MN tells them that it was because they didn't have a maintenance plan.