To think that 'eat less move more', everything in moderation and CICO is total bollox?

[Honestopinion23]

CICO stands for calories in vs calories out by the way.
I often read the weight loss section on here. Every day there are people embarking on any number of diets and body overhauls and I reckon about 95% of them are unsuccessful. Calorie counting, shake diets, you name it, people always gain the weight back before long. Even celebrities who seem to have done well with weight loss eventually gain it back, e.g. Pauline Quirke. I am watching that new amazon show with Melissa McCarthy and she is also back to being around the same size she was before starting her weight loss. Lisa Riley is another one who lost a lot of weight and most of it is back now. Clearly it's not working and people are making money out of telling fat people that they can be thin if only they want it bad enough or try hard enough. The scientific research shows that once you are morbidly obese, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of getting to and maintaining a normal BMI without surgery. Yes, there will no doubt be people popping up here saying they did just that but you are the exception.

The idea that if you just eat less than you burn is also flawed when a) your body adapts to lower amounts. For instance, those who have gastric bypass and eat v low calories forever still tend to be overweight/mildly obese because their bodies just can't get to a low BMI and b) you're fighting against intense hunger urges that someone who has always been normal weight just can't imagine dealing with.

If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.

I'm trying CICO and have done it many times sun the past, lost loads but always gained it back. I've spent the last month thinking about food every minute of the day. What I can and can't eat, what my next meal will be. I'm not even hungry most of the time I'm just obsessed.

I just eat normal family meals but adjust my portion to suit and fill up the rest of the plate up with salad or non starchy veg. This is good for seeing how calorific a home cooked dish is:

https://www.verywellfit.com/recipe-nutrition-analyzer-4157076

@AlbertBridge

People get fat again because they're the type to be either 100% on a diet and following it perfectly, or 100% off a diet and eating everything in sight.

That's also why some people give up on a diet if they mess it up even once.

This is me. I'm in my 40s and I've either been losing or gaining weight since I was 15. The longest I've been the same weight for has been 8 months. And I'm not talking a few pounds. I mean gaining 3 stone in a year then losing 2 the next year and so on

[quote grasstreeleaf]I'm trying CICO and have done it many times sun the past, lost loads but always gained it back. I've spent the last month thinking about food every minute of the day. What I can and can't eat, what my next meal will be. I'm not even hungry most of the time I'm just obsessed.

I just eat normal family meals but adjust my portion to suit and fill up the rest of the plate up with salad or non starchy veg. This is good for seeing how calorific a home cooked dish is:

https://www.verywellfit.com/recipe-nutrition-analyzer-4157076[/quote]
Thanks but it doesn't matter for me. I eat very healthily but I eat all.the.time.

So tonight we had Cajun chicken, mayonnaise, salad and chips. I measured the Cajun chicken and chips to make sure I had the correct amount. I only usually have about a quarter to half a baking potato's sized portion of chips. (3 to 5 chips usually). Couple of tsp mayo. Half a plateful of salad. Easy really.

Thanks but it doesn't matter for me. I eat very healthily but I eat all.the.time

So you are hungry always? Saturated fat can be extremely satiating, I find. A small amount of cream in coffee, if you like it is very filling. Sugary & starchy food can increase hunger. And be very busy. Every spare moment. Have a book on the go, plan tv to watch for duller moments.

In other words replace the obsession with food with something else! Go down a YouTube rabbit hole, go on walks, play all your old music, write playlists...

If all else fails wait 5 or 10 minutes then pretend you have just eaten the thing you have been craving.

I just watched that video lecture from Dr Zoe Harcombe. It was good.

It explains it well, you need to switch off insulin (by not snacking, not eating sugar or refined carbs) and you need to enable glucogon (how to do that was less clear to me but google shows avoiding simple carbs, leaving a good few hours between meals, also protein in the diet).

I suppose CICO will work for a lot of people for a short while because they're cutting back on grazing, and cutting back on sugar.

@Againstmachine

The problem also is how much people under estimate how much they eat.

You only have to look at a cereal serving Vs what people actually put in the bowl.

I started weighing my food to get a better idea of the portions sizes I should be eating when I first started calorie counting. I was SHOCKED when I saw just how small a portion of rice/spaghetti is supposed to be, I was eating much more than I was supposed to be.

So if you have people who think they're eating 1 portion of their food but in reality are eating 2-3x that, it's easy to see why they think CICO or any diet doesn't work for them. Plus many people forget to add things like oil (120 calories per tbsp), snacks etc

I am a obese person, had a BMI of over 45 and now at 40. Things I have worked out over the last couple of months ;

1. It took a lot of time and effort to get to a BMI of 45, it took me 10 years of consistently overeating and under exercising to reach this point so I am not expecting a quick turnaround, I imagine it will take me at least 2 years to get to where I want to be, and that's fine, I have made peace with that fact and am no longer expecting miracles in a couple of weeks/months.
2. Processed carbs made me hungrier, I have cut these out and now only experience hunger occasionally and nowhere near the chewing my arm off/feeling slightly sick with hunger level I felt previously. My blood sugar levels are now normal, even after eating.
3. Losing weight and changing shape are slightly different, I have had a couple of weight plateau's but my shape keeps changing, so I would advise as well as weighing yourself, also measure yourself. How do those jeans feel ?
4. Celebrate the small wins, my work uniform fits better, my knee no longer hurts as often as it did, I can walk up three flights of stairs and recover a lot quicker, my stomach no longer sticks out further than my breasts, hopefully you get the idea ?
5. I need to lose another 7 stone, but I am not concentrating on that number, the number that counts is getting below the stone I weigh currently, so am 18'2, my next goal is 17 something and then it will be 16 something and I know that will mean there will be times where I stick at a certain weight for a few weeks, but that's ok, its very much a marathon and not a sprint.
6. You don't need to entirely deprive yourself, I went on holiday for two weeks and didn't put any weight on, not because I stuck rigidly to my WOE, because I didn't, I drank a lot, had the occasional take away, I just moved around a lot more than my usual sedentary lifestyle.

7.I think a lot of people under estimate the number of calories they consume ( I completely honestly worked out the number of calories I consumed on a normal day pre starting this WOE and it was over 3,000 including drinks) and the amount of exercise that they do, I always put inactive on the BMI calculator because I do no planned exercise on a regular basis, I just do the normal amount of moving about that prevents you from being at risk of pressure damage, no more,no less.

1. Your head needs to be in the right place, you need to accept where you are and work out a strategy that you think you can stick to at least 90% of the time. Nobody is perfect, so you need to factor in your 'weak spots', and let yourself have a few of those, if you feel deprived you will rebel. If you rebel you might rebel a bit too often and give up.
2. drink a lot more water, I used to think I was hungry and instead I was just dehydrated, if you drink 500mls of water and still feel ravenous you probably do need to eat, if you drink 500mls of water and think 'I can wait until lunchtime' you were probably just thirsty.

10. Start thinking about the exercise that you think you would enjoy and could imagine yourself doing regularly, as other's have mentioned, can you fit some strength/weight training into your day ? Could you watch a TV programme whilst on a exercise bike, are you the sort of person that needs a purpose for their exercise, so getting a dog or training for an event might motivate you ? Even parking at the far end of the carpark at the supermarket is a start, it all adds up.

8 is very true

I'm either giving it everything or giving it nothing. At the moment I'm giving it nothing and I'm carrying 15 extra pounds. When I give it everything I can lose weight well and slip in to all the best clothes but I would like to be the type of person who doesn't have to be obsessed, who can just NATURALLY (thoughtlessly) eat fairly well.

I'm going to try tomorrow, low carb. I did keto before and turned my nose up at low carb, I thought it didn't go far enough

Ha!

@frumpety

I applaud your honesty and self awareness. Would love to be able to follow your journey. Do you have a blog?

Hormones in the body do pretty much force us to eat more, just like they force us to stay at the right temperature, force us to eliminate pee, force us to feel anxious when public speaking.

Would be interested in learning about which hormones you're talking about.

It's basic homeostasis, @Sarahlou63, it's hormone balance that keeps everything in line in the body.

Right temperature: Thyroid hormone
Eliminating pee: Vasopressin
Feeling anxious: Adrenaline

The hormones that deal with our appetite are ghrelin, leptin, and insulin.

@TheFoundations have you read anything about fasting and hormones and the inpact of fasting on circadiun rhythm's ?

Why do you ask, @frumpety? Feels like you've got something to say, or maybe ask?

Hmm. So how do we not wet ourselves when we don’t have access to toilets? And how is that some people do not feel anxious about public speaking? Could it be that the frontal cortex can override the signals from the amygdala to impose conscious thought processes on unconscious reactions? Just a thought 😏

@Sarahlou63

Hmm. So how do we not wet ourselves when we don’t have access to toilets? And how is that some people do not feel anxious about public speaking? Could it be that the frontal cortex can override the signals from the amygdala to impose conscious thought processes on unconscious reactions? Just a thought 😏

If you can stop yourself peeing for the rest of your life, and never get nervous again, that point serves your argument.

If, however, you think you are likely to need a pee quite soon no matter how much you try to hold it, and that probably something will make your heart flutter at some point, it serves my argument.

We can all say no to the chocolate bar. But eventually the hormones get the better of us.

We can all say no to the chocolate bar. But eventually the hormones get the better of us.

OK. If you say so. Hormones are a bit like Brexit supporters, huh? Very, very bad for us but they get their way in the end.

@Sarahlou63

Hmm. So how do we not wet ourselves when we don’t have access to toilets? And how is that some people do not feel anxious about public speaking? Could it be that the frontal cortex can override the signals from the amygdala to impose conscious thought processes on unconscious reactions? Just a thought 😏

I mean…we do. You try holding your pee for too long (not just temporarily) and eventually your body will evacuate your bladder whether you like it or not. And while we’re not all anxious about public speaking, nearly everyone will have anxiety or fear about something and they won’t be able to switch it off at will. So no, I don’t think that hormonal responses can be switched on or off at will. Just thank your lucky stars that you don’t have the hormonal response to food that some others struggle with.

@TheFoundations I was listening to a programme on Radio 4 on Friday I think it was, it was discussing circadiun rhythms and fasting, I was working so in and out of the car, so didn't catch the full programme.

I do appreciate the effect of hormones on the body and how that can impact us, but I would also say that the lifestyle we live can have an impact on how those hormones effect us. There is a ton of research out there about shift working and night shift workers in particular and how that negatively impacts their health. Personally I think there is a balance between the naturally occuring effects of hormones and those that are external. So take insulin for example, my previous diet was very much a rush/crash type diet , felt hungry, stuffed myself with quick fix carbs, felt great, almost 'high' for a short time until the crash happened and then felt awfully lethargic. Now I feel hungry and have some protein, a bit of fat and a load of green stuff and I feel satisfied but not lethargic, there is no massive 'dip', my blood sugar levels are now normal pre and post eating.

@Sarahlou63

We can all say no to the chocolate bar. But eventually the hormones get the better of us.

OK. If you say so. Hormones are a bit like Brexit supporters, huh? Very, very bad for us but they get their way in the end.

What on earth are you talking about? Hormones regulate the body. They haven't evolved to deal with the amount and type of food we've had for the last few decades, because evolution takes a very long time. So hormones are struggling to regulate things because they've actually evolved to a feast/famine environment, ie gain fat if you can, because you'll need it in a week or two when there's no food.

You seem to think this is some silly opinion of mine, with your superior 'if you say so' attitude, but everything you say is a criticism rather than a counter point. Your point is that it's no problem to say no to junk food, which is clearly not the case, otherwise everyone would just say no, and this discussion wouldn't exist.

Nobody is saying that we shouldn't say no to the junk food, just that there are reasons it's hard for people, on a varying level.

Hormones are very good for us. Without them, we wouldn't be here, because our parents wouldn't have made us. Without them, we would die immediately. But they don't get everything right all the time, and they struggle when we move the goalposts massively, as we have with food over recent years.

Yes, @frumpety, environment is everything. There's our own individual lifestyle choices, and there's an overall lifestyle too, that we all live in, which is enormously different from that of, say 100 or 200 years ago.

The obesity epidemic started around 1980, which coincided exactly with us being suddenly plunged into a 'eating fat is really bad for you' environment, a few years after the exact same thing started happening in America.

The basic fact is that however much you want junk food, you can't eat it if it's not there. But it's always there, now, 24/7. That's the lifestyle problem that's affecting us.

@TheFoundations - No, I don’t think you opinions are silly and I do have a basic knowledge of hormones (having had a partial thyroidectomy 3 years ago and having studied level 4 CBT it’s been hard to avoid for a couple of reasons!). My point is that telling people who are unhappy with their weight that it’s not their fault because of their hormones does them no favours whatsoever. All is does it give yet another reason for over eating and being unhappy.

It IS possible to actively change one’s eating patterns. It is possible reject junk food and to make informed nutritional choices. It’s not always easy, granted, but to imply that unhealthy eating is out of our own control is disingenuous at best and dangerous at worst.

The basic fact is that however much you want junk food, you can't eat it if it's not there. But it's always there, now, 24/7. That's the lifestyle problem that's affecting us.

As a great big fat person, it would be lovely to be able to blame anything or anyone else for being how I am, but for me personally, I have had to accept responsibility for how I am, for me to be able to make any change.