To think that 'eat less move more', everything in moderation and CICO is total bollox?

[Honestopinion23]

CICO stands for calories in vs calories out by the way.
I often read the weight loss section on here. Every day there are people embarking on any number of diets and body overhauls and I reckon about 95% of them are unsuccessful. Calorie counting, shake diets, you name it, people always gain the weight back before long. Even celebrities who seem to have done well with weight loss eventually gain it back, e.g. Pauline Quirke. I am watching that new amazon show with Melissa McCarthy and she is also back to being around the same size she was before starting her weight loss. Lisa Riley is another one who lost a lot of weight and most of it is back now. Clearly it's not working and people are making money out of telling fat people that they can be thin if only they want it bad enough or try hard enough. The scientific research shows that once you are morbidly obese, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of getting to and maintaining a normal BMI without surgery. Yes, there will no doubt be people popping up here saying they did just that but you are the exception.

The idea that if you just eat less than you burn is also flawed when a) your body adapts to lower amounts. For instance, those who have gastric bypass and eat v low calories forever still tend to be overweight/mildly obese because their bodies just can't get to a low BMI and b) you're fighting against intense hunger urges that someone who has always been normal weight just can't imagine dealing with.

If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.

I am also not denying that if someone locked me in a cell and only fed me 1000 calories of junk food, I’d lose weight, although unlikely at the precise rate of the CICO theory. The point is that I don’t live locked in a cell so that’s beside the point as I wouldn’t be able to stick to it. If I try, eventually my body, thorough cravings, will force me to eat more.

Same as if someone holds a pillow over my face, I will die. If I instead hold my breath, I won’t die because my body will force me to take a breath before I do, no matter what my willpower or motivation in respect of breathing.

So yes, excess food causes weight gain but high carb diets often trigger excessive cravings that most people can’t withstand forever. Doesn’t make them greedy or lazy.

@herculesoffline my bmi is 23.5 and on a typical day I have a 350kcal breakfast, a 400kcsl lunch, a 600-800kcal dinner and a couple of glasses of wine, plus a bowl of crisps or nuts - sometimes both. I'm 5'4 in my socks, 51 and menopausal and too creaky to manage any exercise more strenuous than a not too long walk (max 1hr before something hurts) and some gentle stretches.

No extremes involved.

@DrSbaitso

Not sure I hugely reduced calories either but I don’t binge anymore so that’s got to make a difference.

Yes, not binging will reduce your calories.

You're eating less. When they say "eat less", they don't necessarily mean smaller quantities in general. It depends on the food. But you have reduced your intake, ergo, you've lost weight.

Your way wouldn't work for me as I'm veggie.

I’m not denying that, although I firmly believe that not all types of calories have the same effect on the body. The point is that I binge on a carby diet. I literally can’t eat that way without urges to binge taking over my mind. Not because I’m lazy and undisciplined. I’m incredibly hard working and disciplined in all other areas of my life. It’s because my body is wired in a way that reacts badly to sugar. I am pleased that not everyone has the same issues as me.

The problem also is how much people under estimate how much they eat.

You only have to look at a cereal serving Vs what people actually put in the bowl.

Another strand to this is exercise. With MAF (maximum aerobic function) training, cardio training at a particular low intensity the body becomes more efficient at burning fat for fuel. So you don't get the exhaustion or triggering of the compulsion to rest and eat as quickly during exercise. It's great for endurance.

Different types of muscle predominantly use different energy sources. Slow twitch muscles burn fat through aerobic respiration, fast twitch muscles burn glucose through anaerobic respiration.

@Againstmachine

Would that be by the mainstream medical profession who have overseen a huge explosion of obesity over the past 6 decades?

Eh we have been discrediting people the mainstream didn't agree with for past year.

The obesity over past 6 decades is due sedentary lifestyles rise of cars and eating more or or more calorie filled foods.

Actually, I think there is evidence that activity levels haven’t hugely changed from eg the 70s. It’s a myth that everyone had active jobs in the past and also, exercise doesn’t have a huge impact on weight loss.

@Againstmachine

Fung is regarded as a quack to be honest.

As are the keto brigade.

Are you qualified at all in this area? Fung is a highly qualified doctor so it makes sense to listen to what he has to say and then provide information to refute what he says. Calling him a quack really just highlights the lack of a strong argument. He's made a lot of points - I'm sure you can put forward a bit of evidence to refute just one of them, can't you?

exercise doesn’t have a huge impact on weight loss.

It does have a significant impact upon metabolic health, though, which in turn affects weight loss.

I am really not having a go but I wouldn’t be able to stick to it. If I try, eventually my body, thorough cravings, will force me to eat more.

Your body will not force you to eat more, nor will it decide that you will eat junk food. You consciously make that decision at every meal. If someone put a bar of chocolate and and apple in front of you, it is your choice which to eat. Unless you start taking personal responsibility to eat a nutritious, balanced diet any and every weight loss program will fail.

Being 51, I grew up in the 80s and was subjected to lots of poverty porn on the news. The sort where dozens of starving women and children sit and probably wonder why the fuck someone is pointing a camera at them. It might have been clever editing, but I never saw a random plump person whose body had adapted to their enforced VLCD.

The point is that I binge on a carby diet

So carbs don't work for you. I thought the advice has been low carb for about 20 years?

While I kind of agree that exercise isn't great for losing weight unless you are training in the league of a professional it does make you look at your body differently and you see yourself getting fitter and fitter. Depending on what type you do it tones and you aren't eating whilst you exercise so win win. You can't just do 30 mins and then think right I have earned enough deficit to eat a massive meal and pudding though.

@DrSbaitso

The point is that I binge on a carby diet

So carbs don't work for you. I thought the advice has been low carb for about 20 years?

no. the advice has been to eat complex carbs, i.e. wholegrain and plentry of vegetable, fruit and seeds for quite sometime.

I think low carb and extremly low carb is new and a fad.

Your body will not force you to eat more, nor will it decide that you will eat junk food. You consciously make that decision at every meal. If someone put a bar of chocolate and and apple in front of you, it is your choice which to eat. Unless you start taking personal responsibility to eat a nutritious, balanced diet any and every weight loss program will fail.

Well, apart from the one where I stopped blaming myself for something that wasn’t within my control (I don’t care - if you think that it’s just a question or mind over matter, you haven’t experienced cravings to this extent) and started eating in a way that didn’t make me want to binge. That caused me to lose 43 pounds of fat so I think I’m good with the personal responsibility thing, thanks.

I think that CICO is an important aspect of weight loss/maintaining one's weight. However, there are other factors like one's hormones, for women in particular, that many underestimate their importance and the role they play in weight loss. One can be doing all the right things in term of eating and exercise, but if one's hormones aren't aligned, weight loss isn't guaranteed.

During perimenopause, I gained a significant amount of weight (15 kilos) and no amount of diet and exercise would shift it. Due to the chronic insomnia, my cortisol levels were sky high, so I gained more weight. It was only when I went on HRT and my hormones were balanced that the weight, with diet and exercise came off. It took about 7 months. But then, just as I was within a few kilos of my original weight, my hormones shifted again and we had to increase the oestrogen. Within a week my I had gone up a bra size and within a fortnight, 3 kilos had piled on and then a further 3 kilos. It has taken 6 months to figure out the correct dosage of HRT for me to stop the weight gain and now I'm finally starting to slowly shed the weight. I am using a combination of CICO, weight training, walking and intermittent fasting, and eating plenty of protein, healthy fats and leafy greens with a little chocolate as a treat. I am finding it far more arduous this time round but intend to get the weight off. For now, eschewing HRT isn't an option, so know I am tied to this regime indefinitely. It's hard work. I really feel for anyone who struggles with their weight and weight loss.

Are you qualified at all in this area? Fung is a highly qualified doctor so it makes sense to listen to what he has to say and then provide information to refute what he says. Calling him a quack really just highlights the lack of a strong argument. He's made a lot of points - I'm sure you can put forward a bit of evidence to refute just one of them, can't you?

Fung has numerous affiliate websites devoted to his way of losing weight. Money talks.

Lots call him a quack.

@sansucre

I think that CICO is an important aspect of weight loss/maintaining one's weight. However, there are other factors like one's hormones, for women in particular, that many underestimate their importance and the role they play in weight loss. One can be doing all the right things in term of eating and exercise, but if one's hormones aren't aligned, weight loss isn't guaranteed.

During perimenopause, I gained a significant amount of weight (15 kilos) and no amount of diet and exercise would shift it. Due to the chronic insomnia, my cortisol levels were sky high, so I gained more weight. It was only when I went on HRT and my hormones were balanced that the weight, with diet and exercise came off. It took about 7 months. But then, just as I was within a few kilos of my original weight, my hormones shifted again and we had to increase the oestrogen. Within a week my I had gone up a bra size and within a fortnight, 3 kilos had piled on and then a further 3 kilos. It has taken 6 months to figure out the correct dosage of HRT for me to stop the weight gain and now I'm finally starting to slowly shed the weight. I am using a combination of CICO, weight training, walking and intermittent fasting, and eating plenty of protein, healthy fats and leafy greens with a little chocolate as a treat. I am finding it far more arduous this time round but intend to get the weight off. For now, eschewing HRT isn't an option, so know I am tied to this regime indefinitely. It's hard work. I really feel for anyone who struggles with their weight and weight loss.

However, just to complicate things, body fat, food intake and exercise each can affect hormones too!

@Sarahlou63

I am really not having a go but I wouldn’t be able to stick to it. If I try, eventually my body, thorough cravings, will force me to eat more.

Your body will not force you to eat more, nor will it decide that you will eat junk food. You consciously make that decision at every meal. If someone put a bar of chocolate and and apple in front of you, it is your choice which to eat. Unless you start taking personal responsibility to eat a nutritious, balanced diet any and every weight loss program will fail.

This is the boiling down of the misunderstanding. This is exactly why people lose weight and then put it back on again. Because they don't understand that what you eat now will dictate to your body what to tell you to eat later.

Hormones in the body do pretty much force us to eat more, just like they force us to stay at the right temperature, force us to eliminate pee, force us to feel anxious when public speaking. If you think it's so easy to over ride hormonal decisions your body makes, then you try to 'be too cold' at will, or not pee, or not feel anxious. You'll find that what you need to do is to create the right conditions for your body. You can't just decide not to do these things. You have to stand in the walk in fridge, or stop drinking for a while, or choose not to speak in public.

The decision to eat the chocolate bar is a bad decision, yes, but the bit we're not taught is that it's a bad decision for the whole day. That sugar in your morning coffee will create a hormonal environment that's as irresistible jumping when there's a loud bang. It's an environment where the body says 'Hey, we've got sugar, we can live on that all day, keep eating it!'

The decision to eat the chocolate is not just to do with 'self control' and 'not getting fat'. It's often about responding to our minds having been manipulated by advertising, and being part of a group (go on, Janice, one biscuit won't do you any harm!), it's about habit, it's about rewarding ourselves, it's about financial choices, it's about convenience, it's a much much bigger picture than just 'Not for me, thanks, I'm trying to lose weight.'

If you really think it's as simple as just making a decision and following through, why do you think there are so many highly respected, highly qualified, determined, usually self controlled, disciplined people who nail almost everything in their lives, and yet they can't nail this? Your argument doesn't stand.

Fung has numerous affiliate websites devoted to his way of losing weight. Money talks.

Right so mega-corporations like Slimming World, WW, Jenny Craig, all the various studies funded by cereal and bread manufacturers aren’t an issue. But heaven forbid that he makes money. Must be a quack.

@Againstmachine

Are you qualified at all in this area? Fung is a highly qualified doctor so it makes sense to listen to what he has to say and then provide information to refute what he says. Calling him a quack really just highlights the lack of a strong argument. He's made a lot of points - I'm sure you can put forward a bit of evidence to refute just one of them, can't you?

Fung has numerous affiliate websites devoted to his way of losing weight. Money talks.

Lots call him a quack.

Oh look. You said it again. That proves your point loud and clear.

There's money behind all of the methods of losing weight, you must know that. And fasting least, because it's hard to make money out of people not eating. WW and SW must be raking it in, don't you think? They've got numerous branches within miles of your house, I'd imagine. Does their money not talk as well?

Make a valid point, rather than just 'People say he's a quack', because it sounds a lot like you can't back up what your saying because you don't know what you're talking about.

This is the boiling down of the misunderstanding. This is exactly why people lose weight and then put it back on again. Because they don't understand that what you eat now will dictate to your body what to tell you to eat later.

Hormones in the body do pretty much force us to eat more, just like they force us to stay at the right temperature, force us to eliminate pee, force us to feel anxious when public speaking. If you think it's so easy to over ride hormonal decisions your body makes, then you try to 'be too cold' at will, or not pee, or not feel anxious. You'll find that what you need to do is to create the right conditions for your body. You can't just decide not to do these things. You have to stand in the walk in fridge, or stop drinking for a while, or choose not to speak in public.

The decision to eat the chocolate bar is a bad decision, yes, but the bit we're not taught is that it's a bad decision for the whole day. That sugar in your morning coffee will create a hormonal environment that's as irresistible jumping when there's a loud bang. It's an environment where the body says 'Hey, we've got sugar, we can live on that all day, keep eating it!'

The decision to eat the chocolate is not just to do with 'self control' and 'not getting fat'. It's often about responding to our minds having been manipulated by advertising, and being part of a group (go on, Janice, one biscuit won't do you any harm!), it's about habit, it's about rewarding ourselves, it's about financial choices, it's about convenience, it's a much much bigger picture than just 'Not for me, thanks, I'm trying to lose weight.'

If you really think it's as simple as just making a decision and following through, why do you think there are so many highly respected, highly qualified, determined, usually self controlled, disciplined people who nail almost everything in their lives, and yet they can't nail this? Your argument doesn't stand.

This

Make a valid point, rather than just 'People say he's a quack', because it sounds a lot like you can't back up what your saying because you don't know what you're talking about.

Heaven forbid I believe in physics. You didn't counter with him making money I noticed.

If you really think it's as simple as just making a decision and following through, why do you think there are so many highly respected, highly qualified, determined, usually self controlled, disciplined people who nail almost everything in their lives, and yet they can't nail this? Your argument doesn't stand.

I think there is two extremes regarding dieting and exercising to lose weight

1. it's pointless don't even bother trying.
2. it's simple you've failed because you just haven't given it a proper go.

As ever I think the truth lies somewhere between the two. I think people do have to persevere, especially to bed in any new routine, but keep in mind some plans might just not work for them. Being systematic I think can help, log each change you make to see what affect it has upon you and whether you find the regime sustainable.

@Againstmachine

Make a valid point, rather than just 'People say he's a quack', because it sounds a lot like you can't back up what your saying because you don't know what you're talking about.

Heaven forbid I believe in physics. You didn't counter with him making money I noticed.

Huh? Who has suggested that Fung doesn’t believe in physics? It sounds like you have no idea what you’re talking about.

@JoborPlay I also lost weight while pregnant, finishing off lighter at nine minus pregnant than when I got pregnant without changing how I ate at all or having morning sickness etc. In fact, my diet was probably worse owing to carb cravings. And then I absolutely piled weight on after each birth.

It’s hard to escape the idea that hormones must play a part. I’ve seen that it’s not unusual to lose weight during pregnancy with PCOS (I have no other real symptoms). But I’ve never been able to get anyone to engage with it and refer me or do any research on what it might mean. Nor is there much online. It’s really frustrating!