We are now being called bodies with vaginas by one of the top medical journals in the land

[JustcameoutGC]

YANBU the word is woman
YABU shut up VAGINA haver

This will probably get shunted back to the naughty corner. But this is something women need to know. Coming soon to a GP surgery near you. As a vagina haver you may be invited for a cervical smear.

This is what the erasure of women looks like. Splayed on the front cover of the journal read by every medic in the land.

@Awalkintime

Holly60 They are still females even after gender reassignment.

I totally agree. Biological females with potentially no female sex organs. Which is why it’s important to clarify further that it is only biological females with vaginas who can access standard NHS smear tests.

By the way biological females who identify as women, who have had vaginal cancer leading to a vaginoplasty are also excluded from accessing standard NHS smear tests. So the clarification is valid in other contexts too.

Holly60
That also excludes a lot of people. All those under 25 for a start. All those with a vagina and no cervix. No point having a smear without a cervix.

Just label everyone as female and every person will know their own circumstances. It really is that simple.

@Awalkintime

Holly60 That also excludes a lot of people. All those under 25 for a start. All those with a vagina and no cervix. No point having a smear without a cervix.

Just label everyone as female and every person will know their own circumstances. It really is that simple.

I think that is fair enough and I would accept that as a valid argument. I think ‘biological female’ in a medical context is appropriate.

I would not concede the word ‘woman’ needs to be used.

The thing is, your ‘rage’ is completely impotent. I think your energies would be better spent just looking for joy in life, because that is what the trans community is busy doing.

• in life

• in subjugating women

Fixed that for you!

No need for biological to be used, female would suffice. Female is a biological term in itself. I feel woman is also the correct label for adult human females. Much in the same way they use the word man to label adult human males.

Well, it's absolute bollocks isn't it? If people still have those, of course.

Just because a medical journal doesn’t affirm that you are a woman because you are biologically female, doesn’t make you less of a woman if that is how you identify.

'Woman' isn't an 'identity'.

What is your definition of 'woman' if not 'adult human female'? This isn't a 'gotcha' question, @Holly60, it is a genuine question.

What do all women have in common if not biology?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

The thing is, your ‘rage’ is completely impotent. I think your energies would be better spent just looking for joy in life, because that is what the trans community is busy doing.

• in life

• in subjugating women

Fixed that for you!

Ok, there is such a flaw in this argument. How does wanting to be part of a community of women mean that an individual is intent on ‘subjugating women’?

I’ve met trans people through my work and I’ve never seen anything other than vulnerable individuals who are just trying to be true to how they feel at the same time as not putting their head above the parapet and leave themselves open to abuse.

What you’ve seen on social media from the trans community is not the real day to day lives of trans people.

I have no problem with being called female. A 'body with a vagina' however ...

@Holly60

Everything that I see of the gender critical community just screams of such internalised hatred and rage that I actually feel sorry for it’s members. Please don’t feel that anyone who is different to yourself is posing a threat to your own identity. It’s just not true. You are welcome to identify as a woman because you are biologically female, or a man because you are biologically male, but don’t be threatened because others don’t. Just because a medical journal doesn’t affirm that you are a woman because you are biologically female, doesn’t make you less of a woman if that is how you identify.

We know a lot of hatred comes from fear, so perhaps identify what is frightening you specifically, and try to deal with that internally rather than lashing out and trying to prevent others from identifying how they want to.

It's not hatred. I don't care if a man wants to pretend to be a woman or a woman wants to pretend to be a man. I honestly don't. But they are a tiny minority of people so I don't see why the word woman can't be used anymore to describe those of us who are women.

@Awalkintime

No need for biological to be used, female would suffice. Female is a biological term in itself. I feel woman is also the correct label for adult human females. Much in the same way they use the word man to label adult human males.

Ok again, I would concede that point. Female is acceptable.

'How does wanting to be part of a community of women mean that an individual is intent on ‘subjugating women’?'

Right, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be part of a community. Insisting that that community accept you regardless of whether or not they are happy about doing so is the problem.

I’m a woman, and I feel erased. If they aren’t trying to erase women, why aren’t they doing it to men? Do trans communities just say we all know men are transphobic as fuck and aggressive to boot so we won’t try and change the word men, but women now, the words women and woman are fair game as are the actual women themselves?? Attack away my trans friends? How else can you justify this gross inequality?
I’m angry as I’ve just seen these stats that Macmillan cancer support have been cleaning out their webpages. Of women. There are more mentions of men than ever before, presumably as their importance climbs, but women have just about ceased to exist. Transphobe me that, women haters out there.
twitter.com/standingforxx/status/1441820382479233026?s=21

@EdgeOfACoin

Just because a medical journal doesn’t affirm that you are a woman because you are biologically female, doesn’t make you less of a woman if that is how you identify.

'Woman' isn't an 'identity'.

What is your definition of 'woman' if not 'adult human female'? This isn't a 'gotcha' question, @Holly60, it is a genuine question.

What do all women have in common if not biology?

I can tell you how I feel as a woman.

I am biologically female. I have breasts, a vagina, a cervix. I feel comfortable and ‘right’ in my body. I had children. I knew I wanted to be a mother. Not a father, a mother. I wanted to carry a baby in my womb and give birth to it. I like it when people identify me as a woman, I would be sad if someone thought I was a man. I feel a natural affinity for other women, because I have an innate knowledge that they are like me and I am like them. It is also about all the ‘gendered’ activities that the gender critical community focuses on. I like feminine clothes and activities (although I also know that even if i didn’t I would still feel like a woman, just a woman who doesn’t like stereotypically feminine things). I just KNOW I am a woman.

I have enough imagination that I can sort of imagine what It might be like if none of the above were true, and I can imagine how awful that would be.

No, @Holly60, our 'rage' is outrage and it is far from impotent. It's effects are already being seen.

Interesting that the body part most often chosen to identify us bodies is the one most men are most interested in... Given the article is about menstruation, you'd think the uterus would be a more obvious choice as the source rather than the mere exit channel

Good point.

Or maybe it should be “bodies with endometriums”

@DoesHePlayTheFiddle

No, *@Holly60*, our 'rage' is outrage and it is far from impotent. It's effects are already being seen.

But can you at least do it in a less hateful way. The gender critical arguments always come across as a little bit thick, a little bit crude, and a little bit small minded.

They always remind me of that show that was popular for a while. ‘Little Britain’.

[quote timeisnotaline]I’m a woman, and I feel erased. If they aren’t trying to erase women, why aren’t they doing it to men? Do trans communities just say we all know men are transphobic as fuck and aggressive to boot so we won’t try and change the word men, but women now, the words women and woman are fair game as are the actual women themselves?? Attack away my trans friends? How else can you justify this gross inequality?
I’m angry as I’ve just seen these stats that Macmillan cancer support have been cleaning out their webpages. Of women. There are more mentions of men than ever before, presumably as their importance climbs, but women have just about ceased to exist. Transphobe me that, women haters out there.
twitter.com/standingforxx/status/1441820382479233026?s=21[/quote]
I think you have to look inside yourself and question why this is making you feel erased. It is possibly more to do with you, then with the actions of trans people.

I say this because what you are experiencing is not objective or universal.

I am a woman and I don’t feel erased because some women started life as a biological male. If they truly identify as a woman, they are part of my tribe and I accept them.

A less hateful way than saying we want to keep our own identity, safe spaces and sex specific rights?

What is hateful about that?

I’ve met trans people through my work and I’ve never seen anything other than vulnerable individuals who are just trying to be true to how they feel at the same time as not putting their head above the parapet and leave themselves open to abuse.
I have met a lot of tw too. Some of them were as you describe and, whilst I may be sympathetic, I don't think it is right to force us to believe they have changed sex. They haven't. Why is that the only solution?
(And some were very aggressive and obviously had a problem with women. You can't base rules on an assumption of everyone being nice because they're not. Safeguarding is for all males).

@Holly60

Everything that I see of the gender critical community just screams of such internalised hatred and rage that I actually feel sorry for it’s members. Please don’t feel that anyone who is different to yourself is posing a threat to your own identity. It’s just not true. You are welcome to identify as a woman because you are biologically female, or a man because you are biologically male, but don’t be threatened because others don’t. Just because a medical journal doesn’t affirm that you are a woman because you are biologically female, doesn’t make you less of a woman if that is how you identify.

We know a lot of hatred comes from fear, so perhaps identify what is frightening you specifically, and try to deal with that internally rather than lashing out and trying to prevent others from identifying how they want to.

Stop trying to gaslight women. You are a disgrace.

I am a woman and I don’t feel erased

No @Holly60 you're not a woman. You're a body with vagina. Get it yet?

Please don’t feel that anyone who is different to yourself is posing a threat to your own identity.
I think you'll find that women think men are posing a threat full stop. Not to their identity but an actual, physical threat. Because VAWG is actually very common. Do you really think males are not a threat to women at all?

I would not concede the word ‘woman’ needs to be used.

Yet you describe yourself as a woman. So you are being transphobic by your own standards, then.

You seem very confused.