To scream, "Your Private School Children Are Not Being Discriminated Against at Uni"

[Triffid1]

Between work and social I seem to have a pretty diverse group of people who I engage with regularly but as my DC are at an age where we're thinking about high schools, there have been quite a few conversations around this recently. I have now had not one but THREE separate conversations with parents who are planning to send their children to private schools who have expressed concern that it might "disadvantage" them because the universities are prioritising state school children.

Clearly, every time someone says this, I immediately move them further down the pile of people I want to hang out with. But why is this so prevalent? Yesterday, talking with a client on Zoom, where he was ringing from his lovely home office in his leafy suburb of London I didn't actually know what to even say but I wanted to yell, "FFS, if there's a small shift so that the small number of private school children don't get the majority of places at the top universities, you'll have to live with it." Instead I simply changed the subject politely. Argh.

And not reading these statements isn't 'personal prejudice'.

It's contextualisation.

Interesting thread , some very sensible posts combined with righteous indignation on both sides of the debate.

The voting is interesting. Just a bit over the percentage who are privately educated at sixth form. Someone of a cynical nature could be forgiven for thinking that when it comes down to it, human nature is such that whatever we say self interest wins out every time.

I used to live near a private school. Every September they would put a big sign up advertising their percentages of students going to university and Oxbridge unis. I imagine the parents sending their kids there thought that’s what they are paying for.

And it's what they're getting. The best possible education, preparation and chance of getting into the course and university that they want. The chance to be the best possible version of themselves.

What they're not paying for is a hit man to take out the opposition.

At an individual level there've always been lucky and unlucky applicants. There were never individual guarantees.

Purely anecdotal and an extreme case but I personally know a DC who was very heavily tutored to get into a certain school (which all the males in the family have to attend, whatever their suitability), has been excessively tutored throughout to keep up and get required grades and has now managed to secure a place in a near top-tier university. His mother is now beside herself with worry that he will not be able to keep up without the additional support. Surely a bigger question mark over degree outcome in this case than a considered contextual offer.

I'm glad to hear that things have changed since I was applying to University in the early 80s. I still have occasional flashbacks to my interviews, especially at an Oxbridge college.
I was from a school where it was rare for anyone to go to University at all and almost unheard of for anyone to apply for the kind of course and institutions I was aiming for. I had absolutely no help or preparation other than the head of 6th form wishing me good luck. My family had no experience and couldn't help either.
I turned up at my interviews in a suit bought off our local street market, a blouse not terribly expertly altered by my Mum and a pair of heels I was a bit unsteady in. I thought I looked great at the time but with hindsight I can understand why other candidates were sniggering. The Oxbridge experience was the worst as I had to stay overnight before the interview as it was so far from home and it was a morning interview. I loved the place, it was so beautiful but I knew it wasn't for people like me. The evening meal with the other candidates made that very clear to me and the interview where I was pretty much ridiculed confirmed my opinion. I had had no interview practice. My out of school interests were limited to Guiding and the Church youth group as that was all my parents could afford,and this trip was the furthest I'd ever travelled from home. They ripped me apart. I was a naive, ill prepared child competing against confident, erudite young adults. My biggest achievement that day was to not cry during the interview.
I didn't fare much better at couple of other Universities, despite having an exemplary academic record. I did eventually get a place at a red brick uni (now RG) near to home and in fact won a scholarship, based on my Alevel/special level results and an exam, not interview. I graduated in the top 10% of my year and went on to have a successful and happy career so it didn't harm me in the end, but the experience was horrendous and knocked my already dubious self confidence to an all time low.
Now, people would probably be saying "Wow. Getting those results from that kind of school....that's impressive"" but then the vibes I got were very much "Who on earth do you think you are, applying for this course from your background". I guess I am still bitter after all these years. I hope kids like me are really getting a better deal now.

@Volterra

Interesting thread , some very sensible posts combined with righteous indignation on both sides of the debate.

The voting is interesting. Just a bit over the percentage who are privately educated at sixth form. Someone of a cynical nature could be forgiven for thinking that when it comes down to it, human nature is such that whatever we say self interest wins out every time.

What really comes over to me on this thread is the sense of ownership of, and entitlement to, places at 'top' universities from a particular sector of society.

The sense that somehow contextual offers 'take' a place away from a child who was actually entitled to it by virtue of their schooling and background.

@MrsAvocet

I'm glad to hear that things have changed since I was applying to University in the early 80s. I still have occasional flashbacks to my interviews, especially at an Oxbridge college. I was from a school where it was rare for anyone to go to University at all and almost unheard of for anyone to apply for the kind of course and institutions I was aiming for. I had absolutely no help or preparation other than the head of 6th form wishing me good luck. My family had no experience and couldn't help either. I turned up at my interviews in a suit bought off our local street market, a blouse not terribly expertly altered by my Mum and a pair of heels I was a bit unsteady in. I thought I looked great at the time but with hindsight I can understand why other candidates were sniggering. The Oxbridge experience was the worst as I had to stay overnight before the interview as it was so far from home and it was a morning interview. I loved the place, it was so beautiful but I knew it wasn't for people like me. The evening meal with the other candidates made that very clear to me and the interview where I was pretty much ridiculed confirmed my opinion. I had had no interview practice. My out of school interests were limited to Guiding and the Church youth group as that was all my parents could afford,and this trip was the furthest I'd ever travelled from home. They ripped me apart. I was a naive, ill prepared child competing against confident, erudite young adults. My biggest achievement that day was to not cry during the interview. I didn't fare much better at couple of other Universities, despite having an exemplary academic record. I did eventually get a place at a red brick uni (now RG) near to home and in fact won a scholarship, based on my Alevel/special level results and an exam, not interview. I graduated in the top 10% of my year and went on to have a successful and happy career so it didn't harm me in the end, but the experience was horrendous and knocked my already dubious self confidence to an all time low. Now, people would probably be saying "Wow. Getting those results from that kind of school....that's impressive"" but then the vibes I got were very much "Who on earth do you think you are, applying for this course from your background". I guess I am still bitter after all these years. I hope kids like me are really getting a better deal now.

That sounds horrendous MrsAvocet and that would have been me (down to the cheap market bought suit) if I hadn't already realised that I wasn't posh or confident enough to even apply.

I'm also glad that these kids are getting a better deal now.

That’s awful @MrsAvocet. I found it really upsetting to read that. Hopefully nobody goes through that now.

I found that upsetting to read too , so sorry you went through that MrsAvocet

What's really interesting about many comments is how many people seem to not understand that there's a big difference between giving someone who barely scraped through their A levels a place and choosing to give a place to the child from a more disadvantaged background but who achieved the same or similar results as that of a child from a privileged background.

Ultimately, the people disagreeing with my original post on here just make me realise even more why I think I'm right. It's not about being anti private school at all. But the lack of awareness of the privilege that comes with it, is mind blowing.

But the lack of awareness of the privilege that comes with it, is mind blowing.

I guess that's so often the problem with privilege. Those who are lucky enough to have it can't even see what others lack.

I think at the bottom of a lot of this is the profound fear that our own DC might not actually be in the cleverest 5% or 1% of the population.

Parental inability to accept that the child might not be as clever as the parents, or capable of achieving their parents' dreams, is one of the biggest things I've heard from friends who teach at private schools and who tutor.

MrsAvocet gets an upsetting read. It does illustrate perfectly why change was needed.

*what an upsetting read

I found that upsetting to read too @MrsAvocet. One of my friends from a Scottish state comp in the eighties was brilliant (and I mean BRILLIANT), engaging, passionate about his subject but modest and lovely. He applied for Med at Oxford and had the most excruciating interview experience which doesn't sound too dissimilar from the one you describe. Needless to say, he wasn't offered a place and said he didn't so much mind that, it was the humiliation. However, Edinburgh med school suited him just fine and he's had a fantastic career. He's now a Harvard Med School professor and I think he got the last laugh.

@MrsAvocet that is awful. I would hope it doesn't happen anymore. But I am not entirely sure. And while that sort of attitude within schools would, I hope, be considered completely unacceptable, I can't help wondering if it's still a thing based on the unofficial, but very real divide, at my DC's primary school.

Thanks all. And I wasn't even "poor" by my locality's standards. My Dad worked in an office, though he'd left school at 16. That made us "posh" compared to most of my schoolmates many of whom were from unwaged families. If it was difficult for me, there was absolutely no chance for them. I had multiple classmates who left school after O levels who would have been more than capable of doing A levels and going on to higher education (some of them have done as adults in fact) but they had been taught their whole lives that that wasn't an option. I at least had parents who encouraged me. But the attitudes I came across when I tried really shook me. I did encounter similar in my professional life - my accent was mocked by the examiners in one of my professional exams for instance - but at least I was an adult then. I was a child, only just turned 17, in those University interviews and looking back I think it was horrific for people in positions of authority to speak to any applicant like that.

Triffid, I accept that point but it still is unfair positive discrimination if you have two candidates with the same grades and you automatically give a place to someone from a worse school. It belittles the efforts of the parents of state grammar school pupils who found a good school for them or worked hard to pay school fees or the child for got a bursary.

I didn't even try Oxbridge (from a private school) and until my younger sibling got in no one had ever been from our private schools. most girls did not even go to university. I was also very shy at 17 when I did go to a Norther university - we are from NE England. My sons' private school is mostly BAME and my son's B was the highest grade of any one in his year in one subject but no one is ever going to contextualise that result as they are blinkered thinking private school equals the B even though we have local children at leading state schools like Henrietta Barnett and Watford grammar never mind the local comps which tend to get at least one person with over a B grade!

@Xenia

Triffid, I accept that point but it still is unfair positive discrimination if you have two candidates with the same grades and you automatically give a place to someone from a worse school. It belittles the efforts of the parents of state grammar school pupils who found a good school for them or worked hard to pay school fees or the child for got a bursary.

I didn't even try Oxbridge (from a private school) and until my younger sibling got in no one had ever been from our private schools. most girls did not even go to university. I was also very shy at 17 when I did go to a Norther university - we are from NE England. My sons' private school is mostly BAME and my son's B was the highest grade of any one in his year in one subject but no one is ever going to contextualise that result as they are blinkered thinking private school equals the B even though we have local children at leading state schools like Henrietta Barnett and Watford grammar never mind the local comps which tend to get at least one person with over a B grade!

And there, ladies and gentlemen, we have the voice of naked self-interest and unexamined privilege, with a side order of ‘I pulled myself up by my bootstraps’.

Indeed.

Triffid, I accept that point but it still is unfair positive discrimination if you have two candidates with the same grades and you automatically give a place to someone from a worse school. It belittles the efforts of the parents of state grammar school pupils who found a good school for them or worked hard to pay school fees or the child for got a bursary.

If two children from very different backgrounds get the same grade, the truth is that the child from a more disadvantaged background is, without a doubt, doing better. To achiever the same, with less, is more impressive.

The grammar school thing is definitely more complicated and I would question whether there's a huge difference today between opportunities for a child at grammar school vs one at private school in many cases. I have a good friend who went to one of our local grammar schools, which also happens to be among the top schools in the country. She took the exam, lived in the area, and got in. But today, she might not have got a place as it's more complicated - a complicated entrance system based on where you live combined with exam results, higher standards because so many children are tutored (exacerbated because the area is significantly more "posh" so there are a lot more families who can afford tutors than when she got in).

Of course if two students get the same grades they mean more if they are achieved in a much more challenging school environment. How blinkered would you need to be not to recognise this.

@MrsAvocet

I'm glad to hear that things have changed since I was applying to University in the early 80s. I still have occasional flashbacks to my interviews, especially at an Oxbridge college. I was from a school where it was rare for anyone to go to University at all and almost unheard of for anyone to apply for the kind of course and institutions I was aiming for. I had absolutely no help or preparation other than the head of 6th form wishing me good luck. My family had no experience and couldn't help either. I turned up at my interviews in a suit bought off our local street market, a blouse not terribly expertly altered by my Mum and a pair of heels I was a bit unsteady in. I thought I looked great at the time but with hindsight I can understand why other candidates were sniggering. The Oxbridge experience was the worst as I had to stay overnight before the interview as it was so far from home and it was a morning interview. I loved the place, it was so beautiful but I knew it wasn't for people like me. The evening meal with the other candidates made that very clear to me and the interview where I was pretty much ridiculed confirmed my opinion. I had had no interview practice. My out of school interests were limited to Guiding and the Church youth group as that was all my parents could afford,and this trip was the furthest I'd ever travelled from home. They ripped me apart. I was a naive, ill prepared child competing against confident, erudite young adults. My biggest achievement that day was to not cry during the interview. I didn't fare much better at couple of other Universities, despite having an exemplary academic record. I did eventually get a place at a red brick uni (now RG) near to home and in fact won a scholarship, based on my Alevel/special level results and an exam, not interview. I graduated in the top 10% of my year and went on to have a successful and happy career so it didn't harm me in the end, but the experience was horrendous and knocked my already dubious self confidence to an all time low. Now, people would probably be saying "Wow. Getting those results from that kind of school....that's impressive"" but then the vibes I got were very much "Who on earth do you think you are, applying for this course from your background". I guess I am still bitter after all these years. I hope kids like me are really getting a better deal now.

I'm hopeful that things have changed although your experience of an Oxbridge interview in the 80's was exactly the same as my experience in the late 90's. Except that not only was I ridiculed by fellow candidates and the interviewers I was also sabotaged when I found out that someone had removed a note from the door of the room I was staying in (the college had offered some accommodation at reasonable rates for interviewees) requesting that I attend another interview the following day. Some fucker stole that note and the first I heard of it was in my rejection letter. Not sure who it was but the vast majority of those in that accommodation where the privately educated lot that were sniggering at me, my cheap suit and northern accent.

The one positive about the whole things was it was a good lesson in how the world really is. That there are people born into privilege so absolutely unaware of it that they think they are being discriminated against by actions that try and ensure equality of opportunity. There are people out their that believe that their parents' wealth means they are better than you. That there are people who think that taxpayer's money should be spent to support the privileges their wealth has bought rather than educating the best and brightest regardless of background.

@opoponax

Of course if two students get the same grades they mean more if they are achieved in a much more challenging school environment. How blinkered would you need to be not to recognise this.

Have you read the thread? Because a LOT of people don't see this!

Triffid, I accept that point but it still is unfair positive discrimination if you have two candidates with the same grades and you automatically give a place to someone from a worse school. It belittles the efforts of the parents of state grammar school pupils who found a good school for them or worked hard to pay school fees or the child for got a bursary.

I think this is a really interesting post because it gets to the heart of what is causing middle class parents so much angst.

It is common sense that, if two candidates have the same grades, the one who has had to overcome significant disadvantages is actually a stronger candidate than the one that has had a very privileged education. Fairness would obviously dictate that the stronger candidate should take priority.

However, the problem with this is that it belittles the efforts of the parents who have tried so hard to give their children every possible advantage. In other words, this is not actually about the efforts of individual kids and whether or not the most deserving candidates get access to the top universities, it is about the extent to which parents feel that they will be rewarded for all the time and money that they have invested in their offspring.