To scream, "Your Private School Children Are Not Being Discriminated Against at Uni"

[Triffid1]

Between work and social I seem to have a pretty diverse group of people who I engage with regularly but as my DC are at an age where we're thinking about high schools, there have been quite a few conversations around this recently. I have now had not one but THREE separate conversations with parents who are planning to send their children to private schools who have expressed concern that it might "disadvantage" them because the universities are prioritising state school children.

Clearly, every time someone says this, I immediately move them further down the pile of people I want to hang out with. But why is this so prevalent? Yesterday, talking with a client on Zoom, where he was ringing from his lovely home office in his leafy suburb of London I didn't actually know what to even say but I wanted to yell, "FFS, if there's a small shift so that the small number of private school children don't get the majority of places at the top universities, you'll have to live with it." Instead I simply changed the subject politely. Argh.

[mustlovegin]

As soon as we benefit one group then we take places from another group

Many people on this thread do not seem able to grasp this simple concept. Life is a sum zero game, and that's a reality

[hangonamo]

I find some of the posts on this thread so depressing. If ever I needed reminding of the reason why I chose not to send my DC to private school (despite being privately educated myself), these attitudes are it. Repulsive.

[SkinnyMirror]

@mustlovegin

As soon as we benefit one group then we take places from another group

Many people on this thread do not seem able to grasp this simple concept. Life is a sum zero game, and that's a reality

We get it. What we're saying is that it's not as simple as that.

Private school students are not having their university places taken away from them. They are still able to apply and they still have a very good chance of success.
It's just now a slightly more competitive process.

You talk like private school students are being denied places. That's not the case at all.

[SkinnyMirror]

@mustlovegin

Hahaha but they are complaining about issues that don't exist and a system they know nothing about

Also, if the system is so obscure and cryptic only a few can 'understand' it and nobody can complain, there's a problem, don't you think?

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's difficult or complex.

[mustlovegin]

If ever I needed reminding of the reason why I chose not to send my DC to private school (despite being privately educated myself), these attitudes are it

Well, likewise private school DC don't have to be exposed to the likes of 'let others hand over their cash and surrender their places so that we can progress as we are brighter, more interesting and more deserving because we say so' types

[mustlovegin]

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's difficult or complex

The Office for Students is saying more transparency is needed. I've quoted it upthread

[SkinnyMirror]

@mustlovegin

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's difficult or complex

The Office for Students is saying more transparency is needed. I've quoted it upthread

Yep, and most universities have since implemented that advice.

It's still an excellent overview of contextual admissions.

Again, what aspect do you find difficult to understand?

Or do you just disagree with equality- because that's how you are coming across!

[SkinnyMirror]

Well, likewise private school DC don't have to be exposed to the likes of 'let others hand over their cash and surrender their places so that we can progress as we are brighter, more interesting and more deserving because we say so' types

Disgusting.

And not what happens

[stoneysongs]

Well, likewise private school DC don't have to be exposed to the likes of 'let others hand over their cash and surrender their places so that we can progress as we are brighter, more interesting and more deserving because we say so' types

For the last time, THE PLACES ARE NOT THEIRS TO SURRENDER!

Unbelievable how threatened some people are by bright state school children. What if... what if all those supposedly high flying privately educated children are not actually the best? Imagine that.

Remember, a lot of state school children get their A stars without needing the easy ride that private school provides. They can do it without small class sizes. They don't need extra tutoring or like minded peers. They can even get into Oxbridge without fancy extra curricular and work experience from alumni. 🤷‍♀️

[lottiegarbanzo]

Their places??? That's the crux of it, isn't it. This bizarre notion of future ownership of something you've (they've) yet to win (and might never have gone on to win). Just because... because what? What makes good university places rightfully the property of private school students mustlovegin ?

Your argument is with the universities. They're the ones failing to recognise your/their prior ownership. How will you make that case to them, I wonder?

I really must have missed that line in the prospectuses. 'X% of our places have already been reserved by Y and Z schools, on behalf of their future pupils. The rest of you are free to compete for what remains'.

[lottiegarbanzo]

Yes, as I said about six days ago (it feels like), at the bottom of this lies the profound fear that ones own children might not actually be the brightest and the best. That, based on merit, they do not own and are not owed the best that universities and society have to offer.

[christinarossetti19]

That their children might not be the brightest and the best but nevertheless they are entitled to places at top universities by dint of their parents paying for private schooling.

And yes, that's the crux of the matter, that places at the best universities, the best graduate schemes etc etc actually belong to the already privileged and any attempt to reduce the disadvantage that others experience in application by a crumb is effectively taking away something that rightfully belongs to the privileged.

[christinarossetti19]

@mustlovegin

As soon as we benefit one group then we take places from another group

Many people on this thread do not seem able to grasp this simple concept. Life is a sum zero game, and that's a reality

Nobody is taking places away from anyone.

There are a finite number of places at elite universities which the institutions allocate as per their Admissions Criteria.

The places don't belong to anyone until they are offered it.

[Lollipop444]

@lottiegarbanzo

Yes, as I said about six days ago (it feels like), at the bottom of this lies the profound fear that ones own children might not actually be the brightest and the best. That, based on merit, they do not own and are not owed the best that universities and society have to offer.

On reflection and going by some on here, I think you may be right!

[SkinnyMirror]

The places don't belong to anyone until they are offered it.

Exactly!!

[lottiegarbanzo]

Indeed. To follow my previous thought... thus every effort at imposing meritocracy must be resisted!

Just as with all those 'men's jobs' 'given' to women... and so on, and on, and on.

[Pegasus12]

Too much generalising on all sides of the fence. People send their children to private schools for lots of reasons. Not all of those reasons are obnoxious. There are a lot of children with behavioural issues, dyslexia, autism etc in private schools whose parents are just doing their best to help their children. Army children often board because they don’t want to get dragged around on endless deployments. It’s not all about buying social status. I went to Cambridge from a state school and didn’t especially feel equipped for it so I’m ambivalent about the Oxbridge argument generally. It’s not the be all and end all.

[lottiegarbanzo]

Have you read the thread Pegasus12 ? It's not about whether anyone is obnoxious, or suggesting that any form of schooling is 'bad'. It is about contextual offers.

Presumably the parents who send their DC private because of their own work patterns, or to support SEN, are not the ones who regard elite university places as 'theirs' for the asking, so would not be the ones complaining about universities making contextual offers.

[SkinnyMirror]

Of course people send their children to private school for a number of reasons. I don't object to any reason..... you do what is best for you and your family.

However, attending a private school does not mean you are then entitled to a place at an elite university. You enter that competitive process just like everyone else.

This idea that state school or deprived young people are stealing university places that belong to privately educated people is just ridiculous.

[Pegasus12]

I have read the thread. Yes. And there are some slightly aggressive comments about private education that make me a bit sad.

I haven’t come across the argument particularly about private school children having an entitlement to particular university places. But it is of course silly. I can only speak personally but I found my Cambridge course challenging (I read Law) and I didn’t get a “contextual” offer. So if you are not in a place where you are getting top A level grades you might struggle. What I think is even more relevant is getting better financial help to people who are poor and attend elite universities. Because getting in the door is one thing. Keeping up with the way of life is another.

[cinnamonswir1]

This thread is a masterclass in wilful misunderstanding on all sides.

The whole argument seems to be stoked by the belief that that certain people think “state school children are stealing the places of independent school children.”

YET NOBODY HAS SAID THIS.
NOT ONE PERSON.

Please stop reading what’s not there. You can’t have a meaningful debate about the nuances of anything with all this projection going on.

If someone doesn’t agree with you entirely, it is not concomitant to them disagreeing with the principle of contextual offers. If you keep shutting them down with this accusation, it never goes anywhere. Just round and round and round.

[SkinnyMirror]

Well, likewise private school DC don't have to be exposed to the likes of 'let others hand over their cash and surrender their places so that we can progress as we are brighter, more interesting and more deserving because we say so' types

This reads very much like someone believes private school students have a right to a place at an elite university and that they are being made to surrender these places to disadvantaged students.
There have been similar comments from the same poster.

There is no projection going on. I'm simply reading the words in front of me.

[cinnamonswir1]

Well that was a response to a similarly belligerent tone in some of the posts before.

I can’t even face scrolling back and picking out certain quotes. This has been going on for days and days!

[mustlovegin]

thus every effort at imposing meritocracy must be resisted

'Contextual' offers based on subjective criteria does not equal meritocracy

And I don't believe private school students own places, just that the allocation criteria does not seem to be transparent, that's all

[mustlovegin]

belligerent tone

It appears that some posters cannot face someone disagreeing with them.

Also, the OP's tone was not exactly soft and subtle, was it?