To scream, "Your Private School Children Are Not Being Discriminated Against at Uni"

[Triffid1]

Between work and social I seem to have a pretty diverse group of people who I engage with regularly but as my DC are at an age where we're thinking about high schools, there have been quite a few conversations around this recently. I have now had not one but THREE separate conversations with parents who are planning to send their children to private schools who have expressed concern that it might "disadvantage" them because the universities are prioritising state school children.

Clearly, every time someone says this, I immediately move them further down the pile of people I want to hang out with. But why is this so prevalent? Yesterday, talking with a client on Zoom, where he was ringing from his lovely home office in his leafy suburb of London I didn't actually know what to even say but I wanted to yell, "FFS, if there's a small shift so that the small number of private school children don't get the majority of places at the top universities, you'll have to live with it." Instead I simply changed the subject politely. Argh.

@cinnamonswir1

Well that was a response to a similarly belligerent tone in some of the posts before.

I can’t even face scrolling back and picking out certain quotes. This has been going on for days and days!

Well, it is abundantly clear that this particular poster believes this and this belief is preventing them from understanding ( or wanting to understand) the rationale for contextual admissions.

Contextual admissions are not a perfect science and there are ways in which they can be improved. It is also understandable that people might not fully agree with the criteria used....but to argue against the concept as a whole because you feel that people are being asked to surrender their rightful university place to someone less deserving is pretty galling to read.

‘you feel that people are being asked to surrender their rightful university place to someone less deserving is pretty galling to read.’

Who thinks that though? Nobody!

How can you have a ‘rightful university place.’ There is no such thing.

Contextual' offers based on subjective criteria does not equal meritocracy

What do you consider subjective criteria? The vast majority of contextual offers are based on data sets and factual information.

And I don't believe private school students own places, just that the allocation criteria does not seem to be transparent, that's all

Is there a particular university you are concerned is not being transparent enough?

@cinnamonswir1

‘you feel that people are being asked to surrender their rightful university place to someone less deserving is pretty galling to read.’

Who thinks that though? Nobody!

How can you have a ‘rightful university place.’ There is no such thing.

The poster actually wrote 'surrender their places' .....i've not made that up!!

Well, I have certainly found the thread interesting and educative (in between all the nonsense and attempted derailments). Thank you OP and @SkinnyMirror for that.

@lottiegarbanzo

Well, I have certainly found the thread interesting and educative (in between all the nonsense and attempted derailments). Thank you OP and *@SkinnyMirror* for that.

Anytime 😄

@Pegasus12

I have read the thread. Yes. And there are some slightly aggressive comments about private education that make me a bit sad.

I haven’t come across the argument particularly about private school children having an entitlement to particular university places. But it is of course silly. I can only speak personally but I found my Cambridge course challenging (I read Law) and I didn’t get a “contextual” offer. So if you are not in a place where you are getting top A level grades you might struggle. What I think is even more relevant is getting better financial help to people who are poor and attend elite universities. Because getting in the door is one thing. Keeping up with the way of life is another.

You wouldn't have got a contextual offer at Cambridge because they (and Oxford) don't give them. To anyone. They may look at context while considering who to make offers to - so may look more favourably at a straight A star student from a crap School. And who could blame them? But equally they may not. But they do not make Contextual offers. My DC had to get the standard subject offer to get into Cambridge, same as everyone else. Contrary to one what one friend claimed she'd 'heard' from a teacher at her DC's v expensive day school. The myth does thrive in some environments!

But yes @Pegasus12 it can be tricky for poorer Oxbridge students once they get there. Short terms and college rules mean term time jobs aren't a possibility as they are elsewhere.

It has, over the days I've been back and forth, been an interesting, fair and nuanced look at the very sound reasons why contextualised offers can make great sense if the purpose of university is to improve the intellectual capital of the whole country.

You wouldn't have got a contextual offer at Cambridge because they (and Oxford) don't give them. To anyone

They do seem to offer contextual offers at Cambridge

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/how-we-use-contextual-data-university-of-cambridge

That document is about the use of contextual data, not making contextual offers mustlovegin.

In fact, it actually says this "It is important to point out that Cambridge does not use contextual data to systematically make allowances for poor academic records or to make conditional offers at lower grades."

Oxford explains also how they consider contextual data

www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/decisions/contextual-data

It's been an interesting and illuminating thread, I do agree.

I don't think I fully appreciated before how places at elite universities could be seen as something that some children are entitled to/being asked to surrender/ being discriminated against being offered.

My eyes are now well and truly open.

[quote mustlovegin]You wouldn't have got a contextual offer at Cambridge because they (and Oxford) don't give them. To anyone

They do seem to offer contextual offers at Cambridge

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/how-we-use-contextual-data-university-of-cambridge[/quote]
The use of contextual data is different to making a contextual offer.

The do engage in contextual admissions- they look at applicants holistically which includes contextual data but the don't make an offer that asks for lower grades. Contextual data will help inform who to interview and make offers to.

Everyone who gets an offer from Cambridge would be expected to get the specified grades. Regardless of your background, you still need to be exceptional.

Other universities may make contextual offers which can involve a reduced offer.
This will be clearly outlined on their website.

My eyes are now well and truly open

Good

@mustlovegin I'd imagine most universities use contextual data. That is not the same as making contextual offers. In fact most organisations use contextual data. It's just data innit?
Do you understand the difference?

I benefitted from a contextual offer over twenty years ago. They liked me at interview and were impressed by my efforts to put myself out there and gain relevant work experience. So my offer grades were lowered slightly, because my comp was truly shit and I don't think the teachers knew what an A at A Level even looked like.

I'm so grateful to my uni for believing in me, as I have flown since and gone on to complete two post graduate degrees. I am married to an Oxbridge graduate, privately schooled, his whole education is an absolute mystery to me.

Let’s have a thread about housing privilege next.

@mustlovegin

I remember vividly when our entire department had to be involved in creating a dynamic and interesting two day programme for a big cheese's daughter as she had expressed interest in Corporate Communications

You sound very resentful and ungrateful OP. First the Zoom client and now your bosses - all of whom enable you to have I imagine a comfortable standard of living.

You don't sound like a very nice person to be around (or employ TBH)

It's kind of mind blowing that you can't see the intrinsic privilege and entitled behaviour in the story I told and that what you took from it is that I'm resentful and a not very nice person to be around or employ.

If anyone EXCEPT this very Big Chees's daughter was interested in corporate communications within a global investment bank, the most they could hope for is that someone like me would agree to have a coffee with said daughter and discuss it. Instead, an entire department of circa 20 people were involved in creating a single-use, tailored programme for ONE teenager.

I worked with many many investment bankers who might well have asked for a favour at a personal level (many did - I particularly enjoyed the time a banker asked me if I could help him out with some wording for his music CV!) but in those cases they a) fully realised that they were asking for a favour and were very privileged to have that opportunity and b) it was person to person, not laid on from up high.

But then.... you said this: Well, likewise private school DC don't have to be exposed to the likes of 'let others hand over their cash and surrender their places so that we can progress as we are brighter, more interesting and more deserving because we say so' types

You really believe that those places BELONG to the private school types don't you? In your opinion, those people and/or their parents have worked harder and deserve it more. You really just can't' even begin to see that a person from a different background with similar grades has actually had to work even HARDER to achieve it.

Everyone can come up with an anecdote though, if they’re minded to make a point.

It’s almost as if some people are determined to think the worst....

Well, likewise private school DC don't have to be exposed to the likes of 'let others hand over their cash and surrender their places so that we can progress as we are brighter, more interesting and more deserving because we say so' types

I've been commenting on these types of threads for years and this is one of the worst comments I've seen.

@rhonddacynontaf

I benefitted from a contextual offer over twenty years ago. They liked me at interview and were impressed by my efforts to put myself out there and gain relevant work experience. So my offer grades were lowered slightly, because my comp was truly shit and I don't think the teachers knew what an A at A Level even looked like.

I'm so grateful to my uni for believing in me, as I have flown since and gone on to complete two post graduate degrees. I am married to an Oxbridge graduate, privately schooled, his whole education is an absolute mystery to me.

Was that at Cambridge? Because that doesn't happen now. They have introduced some 'access' type foundation places. I'm paraphrasing because I don't know the actual title. But that's not the same

‘I've been commenting on these types of threads for years and this is one of the worst comments I've seen.’

Congratulations! Took 40 pages but I’m glad you finally elicited the response you wanted from the thread.

Almost a self-fulfilling prophecy...