To scream, "Your Private School Children Are Not Being Discriminated Against at Uni"

[Triffid1]

Between work and social I seem to have a pretty diverse group of people who I engage with regularly but as my DC are at an age where we're thinking about high schools, there have been quite a few conversations around this recently. I have now had not one but THREE separate conversations with parents who are planning to send their children to private schools who have expressed concern that it might "disadvantage" them because the universities are prioritising state school children.

Clearly, every time someone says this, I immediately move them further down the pile of people I want to hang out with. But why is this so prevalent? Yesterday, talking with a client on Zoom, where he was ringing from his lovely home office in his leafy suburb of London I didn't actually know what to even say but I wanted to yell, "FFS, if there's a small shift so that the small number of private school children don't get the majority of places at the top universities, you'll have to live with it." Instead I simply changed the subject politely. Argh.

But isn't it the case that at Oxbridge the admissions tutors may not read the personal statements. They will look at the scores from the aptitiude tests, the contextualised gsce grades and the predicted grades and invite students to interview. Indeed Cambridge actually interviews a high percentage of applicants (higher than Oxford who deselect earlier). It is then the tutors that carry out the interviews who will read the personal statements in order to decide how to go into depth of subject with the applicant and what subjects to cover. The interviews are then scored and added to the other scores.

After all at some selective unis personal statements are not used for basing their offers on (and are therefore not read) but are used in tie break situations and then they are read.

@AlexaShutUp

I have an idea for parents who are concerned about "discrimination" against their privately educated children. If you genuinely feel that they are at a disadvantage because of their schooling, then why not take them out and send them to state schools instead?

Presumably, you don't do this because you're pretty confident that the privileges that you have purchased for your child will continue to far outweigh the effects of contextual offers for the most disadvantaged children in our society. The issue is not that your children are at a disadvantage in comparison to others, but rather that they are not getting the full extent of the privilege to which you evidently believe that they are entitled.

My dd goes to a state comprehensive. She won't benefit from contextual offers because she is not disadvantaged and she doesn't need them. She is on a level playing field with the kids from independent schools and I'm entirely confident of her ability to compete with them. The vast majority of state educated children do not need and will not get any kind of special treatment. This is not just a stick with which to beat the privately educated. It is about doing something to address the enormous disadvantages faced by a minority of children against whom the odds are so heavily stacked from birth. I honestly can't for the life of me understand why anyone would resent those kids being given the tiniest crumb of support in a system which is so overwhelmingly against them. I just don't get it. Your kids, and mine, will be just fine.

Agree with this completely (and same here)

Season - yes I wouldn’t have expected PS or references to be looked at in the initial round at Cambridge (eg invite to interviews or not).

But after this, the fact there are about 30 colleges, means that the tutors who interview may only have about ten or so applications per subject. By all means, look at the PS and reference in context, but would be very disingenuous to inflict personal prejudice at this point. Otherwise, they might as well say, “oh look I like her, she grew up near where I did.” Or any nonsense. You can’t just refuse to read certain applications! The whole point of the SAQ is for students to tell you why they would be a good fit for that particular course - why ask for that if it doesn’t get read?

What’s next.... putting certain candidates on mute during Zoom interviews because they went to a different school? Madness.

@AlexaShutUp

I have an idea for parents who are concerned about "discrimination" against their privately educated children. If you genuinely feel that they are at a disadvantage because of their schooling, then why not take them out and send them to state schools instead?

Presumably, you don't do this because you're pretty confident that the privileges that you have purchased for your child will continue to far outweigh the effects of contextual offers for the most disadvantaged children in our society. The issue is not that your children are at a disadvantage in comparison to others, but rather that they are not getting the full extent of the privilege to which you evidently believe that they are entitled.

My dd goes to a state comprehensive. She won't benefit from contextual offers because she is not disadvantaged and she doesn't need them. She is on a level playing field with the kids from independent schools and I'm entirely confident of her ability to compete with them. The vast majority of state educated children do not need and will not get any kind of special treatment. This is not just a stick with which to beat the privately educated. It is about doing something to address the enormous disadvantages faced by a minority of children against whom the odds are so heavily stacked from birth. I honestly can't for the life of me understand why anyone would resent those kids being given the tiniest crumb of support in a system which is so overwhelmingly against them. I just don't get it. Your kids, and mine, will be just fine.

Great post. My dc is the same as yours and was at state comp. Outperformed all of their contemporaries at private school in their GCSEs and at their chosen sport. Entirely self motivated without and help from us (other than transportation and equipment).

Won’t need or qualify for any contextual offer but I can see the benefit of them for certain deserving children. I also understand the privilege/advantage our dc has over others who won’t have received the level support we have provided for ours.

Just because you are ' paying' for a university education doesn't mean you are an expert on how universities function.

Conversely, it doesn’t mean I don’t either. Explain how this isn’t the case.

Because what you are saying just isn't true. If you were an expert you'd be saying something very different. It's clear from your posts that you don't know how universities function and the role and purpose of contextual admissions.

Having an opinion is fine but passing these off as fact is unhelpful for everyone.

I feel this is what you are doing. With an additional dollop of trust me, and no need to explain yourself and some professional arrogance.

I'm not offering up my opinion at all. Everything I've said is based on professional experience, research and data. Happy to explain myself and offer up my credentials if that's what people want.

Tutoring would also just become an even bigger business. Pretty sure tutoring is already big business. It would be really interesting to see what percentage of grades were achieved without the benefit of tutors (another hidden advantage!). I have read that in London it's 40% of students who receive it in some form!

@moch11

whoop - you are right, it doesn’t specifically say they are an admissions tutor at Cambridge specifically (though does give that impression). Thankyou for pointing that out.

I wonder if, when this poster submitted their application for this post of admissions tutor, the panel took one look at it and said, “ Oh look, a privileged toff from Cambridge. They will have had help won’t they. Don’t read that, Chuck it in the bin.”

Because that would be illegal wouldn’t it?

She didn't say that any applications were chucked in the bin.

Only that, as an Admissions Tutor she, like hundreds of other Admission Tutors doesn't read the Pss.

moch11 this part of your last post - "By all means, look at the PS and reference in context, but would be very disingenuous to inflict personal prejudice at this point" pretty much sums up the thinking behind contextual offers.

I used to live near a private school. Every September they would put a big sign up advertising their percentages of students going to university and Oxbridge unis. I imagine the parents sending their kids there thought that’s what they are paying for.

We know someone local to use who has had a big windfall and is spending it all on private schooling with the view of getting their child into a top uni. People do think they can pay their way in. It’s almost like they think it’s nothing to do with the actual child.

@ christinarossetti19 spot on. There's a big clue in the word 'context'-ualisation and this is ALL this is about. Sadly notions of 'inflicting', 'personal' and 'prejudice' seem to be distorting the nature and scale of the measures.

I am 100% in support of contextualisation. What I am not in support of, is certain applications not even being read on the basis of an admission tutor’s personal prejudices. That is a totally different issue to contextualisation.

@Larryyourwaiter Many of the state schools and 6th Form colleges around where I live use to do this.

Now they just advertise the famous alumni they educated as they have come to realise a campaigner for X cause, a gold medal Olympian, a politician or a well-known actor/DJ/musician/whatever shows they teach a more well rounded education.

Is part of the problem the fact that there are so many dc who get very high grades nowadays (a* and a) compared to those in past years? And that some schools give aspirational predicted grades? (Obviously with covid this has meant that many achieved their aspirational grades whereas with unseen exams there is always a group who will underperform on the day for various reasons).

This must make it difficult for the top universities to decide who is deserving of a place?

@moch11

I am 100% in support of contextualisation. What I am not in support of, is certain applications not even being read on the basis of an admission tutor’s personal prejudices. That is a totally different issue to contextualisation.

But no-one has said that 'certain applications aren't even read' or at Admission Tutors pick and choose which ones to read based on their own assumptions/prejudices etc.

There has been discussion about whether/who reads applications and personal statements, but none about some being selected for reading and some not (except those rejected at the 'are they likely to get the grades' won't be read, of course).

@Lollipop444

Is part of the problem the fact that there are so many dc who get very high grades nowadays (a* and a) compared to those in past years? And that some schools give aspirational predicted grades? (Obviously with covid this has meant that many achieved their aspirational grades whereas with unseen exams there is always a group who will underperform on the day for various reasons).

This must make it difficult for the top universities to decide who is deserving of a place?

God yes.

And add in all those to deferred from last year when uni was pretty much entirely remote and it's an absolute dog's dinner.

@moch11

I am 100% in support of contextualisation. What I am not in support of, is certain applications not even being read on the basis of an admission tutor’s personal prejudices. That is a totally different issue to contextualisation.

YES! I 100% agree.

But no-one on this thread has said that happens or that they support it.

It's almost like people know they've lost the argument and are trying to find something, anything to disagree with, just so that they can feel aggrieved about something.

christinarossetti19 - it was a response to a poster who claimed to be an admissions tutor who said he / she does not read the PS of independent candidates (Note - not all candidates, just those from independents apparently).

There was then something odd about how independent school heads write ‘polished letters’ and then something more bizarre about she / he favouring schools where GW ‘knocked them all down by three grades’ (even though it was CAGS in the end so GW’s algorithm didn’t ultimately determine anyone’s grades).

All in all, I think this poster probably hasn’t been near a uni in any capacity in decades (if ever), but god help students if I’m wrong!

Perhaps there’s a case for applying to uni once you actually have your grades, ie after August and either the uni terms starting later or being able to work or volunteer for a year while applying?

Or perhaps there’s an argument for anonymous applications, a bit like job interviews, where only the predicted or actual grades and personal statement is included so there is no mention of the school they went to? Or mixing up the application or interview process, for example in a different format so that it makes it more difficult to be coached for it and those genuinely interested in the subject and the wider area should shine?

If that so- called admissions person refuses to read the PS’ of independent candidates, I would expect they do the same to international candidates too (probably on the assumption that they all have megabucks and privilege to be even applying overseas).

Maybe grammar school candidates get a cursory glance? Who knows?

Post qualification applications get discussed every few years but it never really gains any traction.
To make it work it would require a major overhaul of both the university and school/college academic year. Nobody has come up with a way of solving this issue yet!!

I've been looking at unis with GS, I noticed on more than one (Bristol springs to mind as one of them) they stated that the students who had contextual offers achieved above average in their degrees. Seems like the system works.

@Lollipop444

Perhaps there’s a case for applying to uni once you actually have your grades, ie after August and either the uni terms starting later or being able to work or volunteer for a year while applying?

Or perhaps there’s an argument for anonymous applications, a bit like job interviews, where only the predicted or actual grades and personal statement is included so there is no mention of the school they went to? Or mixing up the application or interview process, for example in a different format so that it makes it more difficult to be coached for it and those genuinely interested in the subject and the wider area should shine?

One of mine did this. It was interesting as his reference from school predicted he wouldn't pass a particular A level. Interesting as he had already got the required grade in that subject. At an interview he was asked why his head of sixth form had done that? He had no idea.

@ancientgran

I've been looking at unis with GS, I noticed on more than one (Bristol springs to mind as one of them) they stated that the students who had contextual offers achieved above average in their degrees. Seems like the system works.

This is true. There is no real evidence that those entering university with a contextual offer do less well than those with a standard offer.

In fact, the research suggests that universities could offer even lower contextual offers and still see no ( or very little) difference in outcomes.
The OfS actually suggests universities are too cautious with their contextual offers.

@moch11

If that so- called admissions person refuses to read the PS’ of independent candidates, I would expect they do the same to international candidates too (probably on the assumption that they all have megabucks and privilege to be even applying overseas).

Maybe grammar school candidates get a cursory glance? Who knows?

S/he said that s/he doesn't read them because s/he knows very well they're written and edited by senior staff, not the student themselves.

Indeed, this assistance is one of the reasons that parents choose private schools and one of the reasons that privately educated children are so over-represented in 'top' universities.

Looking at the parts of the form which more transparently reflect the student, their background and their capabilities is the contextualisation that you're very much in favour of.