AIBU for thinking hating people for their political leanings is perfectly normal?

[VelvetChairGirl]

I have been reading a brexit thread on here and lots of brexit voters in it seem horrified that they are hated and families have stopped talking to each other, and cut each other off over it.

but its politics nothing affects us more then politics, we have people who cut off others for believing in conspiracy theories and things. Brexit is the biggest shake up in this country in my life time, its taken away our freedom of movement for work and education, needlessly introduced a tonne of red tape, made our rights and standards extremely vulnerable to being destroyed (tories dont like food standards and workers rights this is well documented and they are in charge right now), reduced our standing in the world and will very likely lead us to being the poor man of Europe again, not to mention the fact its cut off vital EU funding to science research, regeneration and education projects up and down the county.

it affects everyone, of course people are perfectly entitled to hate those who voted to hurt them financially, prospects wise etc as much as they would hate someone who physically stole from them, theres very little difference is there?

[quote Porridgealert]@Blossomtoes

"Labour provided high quality public services. We got very good value for money. A global economic crisis hit at exactly the wrong time for them if you want to look at overspending, cast your eyes over the Tories who have pushed debt up to the highest level for over 70 years. It’s very easy to be superior about the Iraq war with hindsight, at the time the majority of the British public backed it."

Labour inherited a country whose economy was on the up; public borrowing had been reduced and inflation had been brought under control. Brown`s slogan was no more boom and bust. Haha. They then started to spend money on services but they didn't have the money to do everything so they borrowed and sold gold reserves at a low price. This was the boom time.
My dad was not a financial whizz but just from reading the newspapers, he had discerned the American subprime mortgage bubble. Now if my dad could spot it, surely the Bank of England and therefore the Treasury knew what was coming. Why didn't they step in with actions prior to the crisis? Instead Brown left the UK with no funds to cushion against the impact. And that resulted in the bust. He's not to blame for what happened in America but he is to blame for not being prepared for the consequences for this country.

Of course debt is high now. We've just paid a large portion of the country 80% of their wages to stay at home and do nothing! Or did you want everyone to be jobless and probably homeless?! Are you seriously comparing Labour running up debt during a benign economy to pandemic spending?

Yes, the British public backed the war but that was because they had been told misleading facts. In fact the reason I was against the war was because I watched Hans Blix give his report to the UN and he was 100% categorical that there were no WMD in Iraq. They had searched every lead they'd been given by security services from different countries. Blair ignored all that and used dodgy information off the Internet to support his position. How many of the general public would know what Blix said? How many believed that a PM would never take them into a war to risk British lives? It's not superior hindsight to look at the honest facts and realised that we were lied to and misled.
Up til then, I never believed a PM would lie over such a serious matter. I actually think that's when politics and trust in politicians started to change.[/quote]
I agree with much of this esp debt now in a crisis and why public backed the war. It soon switched from that support

Although I do want Starmer to get somewhere right now. I think he wants changes and the unions are making it tough (? Because not sure of detail)

He has a speech coming up and I’d prefer if he started getting better support and turning things around

Labour as too weak an opposition isn’t good

@OneTC

but spending on health and education was good value for money.

Public private partnerships?!

PFI was originally a Tory wheeze. It’s a great idea in principle but turned out spectacularly badly because the public sector had no experience in contract formulation and failed to bring in the expertise for it.

Are you seriously comparing Labour running up debt during a benign economy to pandemic spending?

I would be if that was what happened. The national debt rocketed in 2008 and has stayed that way. Austerity didn’t reduce it because of Cameron’s propensity for giving our money to his mates instead of spending it on public services.

@Blossomtoes. But thats not what you compared. You compared the fact that Labour left a load of debt with the debt that has been incurred during the pandemic.
But looking at what you've said, yes, national debt rocketed up under Gordon Brown. And public spending rose between 2008 -10 but that's because the economy shrank so obviously the percentage spend rose. By 2017 public spending % was back to where it was before the banking crisis hit so if you thought Labour was spending a good amount, you have to say the Conservatives are doing the same. Obviously debt increased. The govt had to borrow to pay for services because of Brown's neglect to prepare for the subprime crisis. When Brown left office, the national debt was about 70% GDP. Before the pandemic it was 80%. (Today its well over 110%.) Alistair Darling spent 155 billion propping up the banks. There's no way public cuts could pay back that sort of money.
Now do I think that Tories handled the economy well after they took over in 2010. No, I certainly dont. But to make out that Brown did a good job and it's all the fault of the Tories is just wrong.

And you're right that PFIs were introduced by John Major but they were vastly extended by Tony Blair. Its a great way to look good building hospitals etc, with the bill coming due in the lifetime of another PM.

national debt rocketed up under Gordon Brown

Only after 2008. Here’s a nice little diagram for you.

www.economicshelp.org/blog/7568/debt/government-debt-under-labour-1997-2010/

When Brown left office, the national debt was about 70% GDP. Before the pandemic it was 80%

And before 2008, it was less than 40% less than it had been in the preceding years under a Tory government. All the spending in 1997 to 2008 was funded with income, not borrowing.

Health, education and child poverty improved exponentially under the last Labour government.

A pandemic has been top of the risk register for years. Do you not think it might have been a good idea for the Tory government not to have run down stocks of PPE?

I just echoed your post that said it rocketed in 2008. My point is that it rocketed because of a crisis that the Treasury must have seen coming and did nothing to mitigate. The Tories inherited Labour debt which was rising when they left office.

I agree 100% about PPE. It makes my point that govts need to be prepared for disasters coming. Tories for pandemic. Labour for a banking crisis that had been signposted in blinking daily newspapers.

@Porridgealert

I just echoed your post that said it rocketed in 2008. My point is that it rocketed because of a crisis that the Treasury must have seen coming and did nothing to mitigate. The Tories inherited Labour debt which was rising when they left office.

I agree 100% about PPE. It makes my point that govts need to be prepared for disasters coming. Tories for pandemic. Labour for a banking crisis that had been signposted in blinking daily newspapers.

The national debt was lower between 1997 and 2008 than in the preceding Tory years. Did you even bother to look at the diagram?

The Treasury was supposed to have a crystal ball, then? When no other country in the world saw the crisis coming, including the US where it originated. Can you see you’re not convincing me?

Awww, are people still staying 'BUT GORDON BROWN!' when the world was actually experiencing a full on financial crisis? But now that the Tories are fucking up so colossally with Brexit all we hear is 'but these are global crises, it's not just the UK!' (bullshit)

The Tories have been in government for 35 of the last 50 years and still the Tory numpty cheerleaders try and blame Labour for everything that's gone wrong.

Pathetic.

Some of our nieces and nephews have completely lost respect for their grandparents over Brexit.

The kids go through the motions, but it's pretty much killed off their old affectionate relationship. I think my mum has noticed.

If mum says something like "Boris is doing his best. No one knew there was a global pandemic coming" the older kids' irritation is a bit palpable.

It's not hatred. But there is resentment of what people who voted for Brexit have done to this country, and out of their ear shot the kids say they think their grandparents are idiots for believing such obvious lies.

Consequently, the kids don't have time for their opinion on anything. Even things they know a lot about.

It makes some of us in the generation in between rather sad.

@PrincessNutNuts

Some of our nieces and nephews have completely lost respect for their grandparents over Brexit.

The kids go through the motions, but it's pretty much killed off their old affectionate relationship. I think my mum has noticed.

If mum says something like "Boris is doing his best. No one knew there was a global pandemic coming" the older kids' irritation is a bit palpable.

It's not hatred. But there is resentment of what people who voted for Brexit have done to this country, and out of their ear shot the kids say they think their grandparents are idiots for believing such obvious lies.

Consequently, the kids don't have time for their opinion on anything. Even things they know a lot about.

It makes some of us in the generation in between rather sad.

I'd agree - it's similar in our family. No one has stopped talking, but there's been a re-evaluation of some people by younger family members. Affection and respect has almost palpably been replaced by a more wary sense of duty.

It's easier to distance and withdraw from friendships.

Hatred is pointless. Nothing good is ever achieved by hating somebody or something.

Hating is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

@PrincessNutNuts

Some of our nieces and nephews have completely lost respect for their grandparents over Brexit.

The kids go through the motions, but it's pretty much killed off their old affectionate relationship. I think my mum has noticed.

If mum says something like "Boris is doing his best. No one knew there was a global pandemic coming" the older kids' irritation is a bit palpable.

It's not hatred. But there is resentment of what people who voted for Brexit have done to this country, and out of their ear shot the kids say they think their grandparents are idiots for believing such obvious lies.

Consequently, the kids don't have time for their opinion on anything. Even things they know a lot about.

It makes some of us in the generation in between rather sad.

Yep, it’s a shame. Brexit put paid to my nephew’s plans to study and work in the EU. He is upset that his grandparents voted for something that closed down his dream. The younger ones and my kids are outwardly respectful of my parents but inwardly dismissive. My Mum is full of regret but the damage is done.

And just to add that nephew is a bright, ethnic minority from a low income single parent household who got top A levels in a big inner city comprehensive. Not some privileged middle class kid.

That’s so sad. But even then she must have known that Brexit would materially affect her own grandson?

Here’s a screenshot from another post for those who want to insist that Erasmus was only for the middle class

@antoniawhite

Here’s a screenshot from another post for those who want to insist that Erasmus was only for the middle class

But it's very unlikely to have factored into a lot of people's priorities when it comes to voting, I would suspect lots of people aren't even aware of it, why should they vote for something that has no affect on them when they feel other things do? I voted to remain, but I think it's not too hard to see why people did when understanding their perspective from their experiences.

@NantesElephant

My boys know a lad whose burning ambition since he was about 10 has been to study/apprentice/work/everything in the European Space Agency.

It fuels his hobbies, his studying, his fitness...The kid is driven.

Brexit has screwed him over. All the entry programmes etc are for EU citizens.

How his grandparents could know all this and vote for Brexit I can't imagine.

But he takes it very personally.

Because it iIS personal when people vote for policies that will hurt other people.

Especially people they're supposed to love.

Oh I agree, rhubarb, But when it was mentioned in a list of things that people have lost through Brexit, a great many posters got very angry about something called privilege planet, not realising that the privileged will always be able to pay for these opportunities whereas poorer kids can’t. This kind of manufactured division also fosters the belief that working class kids needn’thave aspired for Erasmus - it wasn’t for them, whereas it absolutely was for them and is now lost.

[quote PrincessNutNuts]@NantesElephant

My boys know a lad whose burning ambition since he was about 10 has been to study/apprentice/work/everything in the European Space Agency.

It fuels his hobbies, his studying, his fitness...The kid is driven.

Brexit has screwed him over. All the entry programmes etc are for EU citizens.

How his grandparents could know all this and vote for Brexit I can't imagine.

But he takes it very personally.

Because it iIS personal when people vote for policies that will hurt other people.

Especially people they're supposed to love.

[/quote]
But doesn’t this go both ways?
Why hasn’t he considered their reasons for voting how they did? Why does his opinion and experience matter more than theirs?

That is so sad nutnuts

[quote PrincessNutNuts]@NantesElephant

My boys know a lad whose burning ambition since he was about 10 has been to study/apprentice/work/everything in the European Space Agency.

It fuels his hobbies, his studying, his fitness...The kid is driven.

Brexit has screwed him over. All the entry programmes etc are for EU citizens.

How his grandparents could know all this and vote for Brexit I can't imagine.

But he takes it very personally.

Because it iIS personal when people vote for policies that will hurt other people.

Especially people they're supposed to love.

[/quote]
Then surely he knows it hasn't all been affected by Brexit?

@UtterlyUnimaginativeUsername

I don't hate anyone for having an opinion that differs from mine, no matter how wildly.

Same here. I wouldn't respect them for their views, but I wouldn't hate them as a person.

Well let’s hope the grandparents are able to point to tangible benefits that Brexit has brought and then their grandson may feel less sore about it. Yes, it does cut both ways, but you need somebody to be getting something out of it. Maybe his grandparents are v wealthy and able to continue avoiding tax.

Sorry, I'm going back quite a few pages as the following stuck out for me

Similarly if someone prioritises their personal wealth over the pain of others they are probably a bad person and I am going to dislike them, even if they seem pleasant on the face of things

This is generally the brush used to tar Tory voters, however it works the other way round too. If someone chooses to prioritise their unwillingness to work over the burden this will push onto other tax payers (low income, high income, we all all play a part) they are a bad person and I am going to dislike them. Or look at it this way, if a certain party allows the market to be flooded with cheap labour that pushes down wages for those already on low incomes, I would disagree with anyone who would vote for that party. Just because people vote Tory, doesn't mean they don't care. They just look at it from a different angle to others. Not all Tories are evil, just like not all Labour voters are scroungers. Is disgraceful to lump people into boxes based on their voting preferences. It's also not good to get entrenched into political affiliations. You should always be open to reviewing your political leanings as circumstances change. All this "cut me open I bleed Labour/Tory" stuff is nonsense.

We all vote for the issues that affect us personally, and when you get right down to it this usually comes down to money. I have a wide circle of friends who vote in various different ways, we all manage to get on very well. We have the occasional political discussion but because were grown ups we all agree to disagree. I don't exist to convert others to my way of thinking, so I couldn't ever hate someone for holding an opposing political view.