Would you be off sick if you weren't being paid?

[MakeMineALarge1]

I work for the NHS, the sick package is very good, full pay for 6 months then half pay for another 6.

I know that its very stressful at the moment in acute care, sickness in our department is currently at 30% with up to 6 members of staff off per shift.

Lots of people citing stress etc, needing time out, and this is granted on full pay.

If you were self employed or hourly paid, would as people still be off with stress and still need "time out"

It seems a lot of threads on here start with "my anxiety" or I have PTSD or I am depressed. Is it too easy nowadays to ring your GP and be signed off on this basis?

Yes, one of the many things that leads to health inequities for people who are less well off in society, is that they are penalised for taking care of themselves when they are unwell. Women in particular are affected as they tend to be in these type of lower paid, less secure jobs.

And, according to many posters here, people with mental health issues are also at a particular disadvantage as with these kinds of attitudes, anyone with mental health issues will soldier on regardless of the long term impact, whether they are paid or not.

The reason people tend to need time off because of mental health is because access to services is so poor that people are experiencing acute problems long before they are able to have effective treatment.

The businesses / industries that have failed post-Covid are the ones which relied on zero or near zero sick levels just to keep the lights on. It’s obvious now that model doesn’t work. Any business that fails because it’s owner takes a few days off is one that isn’t designed properly. I say this as someone who has run a small business on behalf of someone for years & who is now going to buy it from them.

Nope, not unless I was vomiting or physically couldn't get out of bed. I had Covid last month and thankfully got full pay.

I worked for the NHS and dropped to half pay for a while (living alone on Band 1, so it was a huge struggle). I was still unwell (mental health), so less money did not suddenly make me well enough to return to work again. My GP would not sign me as fit to work for a long time and they were right to do so.

@DevonBelles

This is an odd thread to start *@MakeMineALarge1*

The implication is that people who get sick pay 'swing the lead' and take time off when they are not really sick. (I do know of people who 'save' their sick leave as 'holiday days' and add them to their annual allowance.)

But the answer is simple: people who are s/e tend not to take as much time off as they often can't afford to.

From what the OP says it seems like it’s the amount of sick leave that’s the issue - not the presence or absence of it. IMO if a job places high mental stress then there should be a separate category of mental health leave. In some countries psychiatric nurses for example get this on top of their annual allowance and must take it every so often.

Sick leave should be enough to cover the amount of time one would reasonably be expected off annually, again as an average.

However if people are overworked and underpaid , dealing with stressful conditions and the company allows it I can’t exactly judge them for taking whatever is offered. That’s only for HCP /some front liners though , other staff have cushier lives than those in private companies and so are taking the piss.

YANBU

I'm self employed and couldn't even download the COVID app for fear of being pinged and told to take 10 days off work unpaid

What a goady thread. What is the point of this op?

I work for the NHS and I get a month full pay then a month half pay then nothing. I pay a lot for income cover insurance because of this as there is only me to pay the mortgage etc.

I would only be off sick if absolutely necessary.

I was off sick well beyond the point where my sick pay ran out. I was off so long my contract was terminated.
So yes I would be off sick without pay. Because I genuinely was (still am) so mentally unwell that I cannot cope with work.

I have had people say "well. I couldn't afford to be off sick." Neither can I tbh. But I genuinely cannot manage work atm.

I've never taken time off since returning to work, literally no sick leave in 16 years. I see friends out and about saying they are signed off sick which I don't get - if I'm ill enough to be off work I would be home in bed. I was working from home when I caught covid in March 2020 so I still worked.

I'm self-employed and haven't taken a day off sick since I started my on business.

It was definitely much easier to take time off when I was employed, and yes, I'll fully admit that the 10 weeks of full sick pay each year played a big part in that.

@gogohm

I've never taken time off since returning to work, literally no sick leave in 16 years. I see friends out and about saying they are signed off sick which I don't get - if I'm ill enough to be off work I would be home in bed. I was working from home when I caught covid in March 2020 so I still worked.

Being off sick does not mean you are home in bed, unless you have flu or similar. I was off sick for mental health reasons and was encouraged by my GP to go out, go the shops, sit in cafes etc. Of course, when any of my colleagues saw me out, it would get reported back to my boss, and it caused resentment and the assumption that I was "swinging the lead".

I worked for the NHS for a while.

They were so harsh about genuine, infectious illness and threatened you with disciplinary action for thinking you could attend medical appointments after you'd dared to be infectious that I worked my way into 6 months off sick due to a massive flare of arthritis.

I didn't go back.

I then worked in another public sector place where you weren't allowed medical appointment at all and had no choice about leave dates due to being TTO. After being unable to access medication or treatment for 15 months, I was signed off for three.

Now working somewhere else where you get time off for appointments, sick pay and the like. Strangely, I don't take the piss, nobody else takes the piss and as a result, sickness absence is half the national average for the sector and the only people off long term have been for serious illnesses - picked up because the staff members were able to request time off for appointments without fear of retribution or refusal.

I know for a fact that in most jobs, I have been in when too unwell, often infectious and other people suffered as a result of my having to drag myself in whilst wishing that the office would have spontaneously combusted overnight.

@gogohm

I've never taken time off since returning to work, literally no sick leave in 16 years. I see friends out and about saying they are signed off sick which I don't get - if I'm ill enough to be off work I would be home in bed. I was working from home when I caught covid in March 2020 so I still worked.

Thing is, with a long type illness or injury you don't just spring back to 'normal' the day you return to work. I could walk, slowly, when I'd had my cast off a broken leg, was off another month because I had to build back the muscle and strength to enable me to do my job safety and effectively. Only way I was gonna do that is get out and walk/exercise it. If I'd stayed in bed then I'd have been no further forward. Some illnesses, both mental and physical need not only time to get over the illness itself, but time to recover back to your best which is what everyone demands you give at work. Why is it so hard for people to comprehend that humans aren't robots and as such are susceptible to illness or injury?

Thank you for everyone's comments,

I will go back and read them, I have been out all afternoon.

Yes it was a goady thread, but it has got discussion going.

Some comments have made me rethink and I agree protected pay is a benefit and should be protected and it does lead to inequality.

I do think some people take the piss - I think normal day to day feelings are magnified these days and terms such as PTSD or depression, anxiety etc are used too readily to describe every day emotions.

I expect, being self employed myself, self employed people take less sick. But your OP implies that people may be taking time off when they dont actually need it - whereas I think many self employed arent taking time off when they need it.. they just can't lose the money

Elevated sickness does have an impact on the rest of team, 6 staff off per shift has a direct impact on the rest of team, the care you provide and impacts other peoples mental and physical health.

I work in a law firm in London with generous sick pay and the amount of people calling in sick has reached epic levels now. Yesterday we had 6 secretaries out of 11 call in sick, including mine.

We used to have a policy where our bonus was increased if we didn't take over a certain amount of sick leave but that was scrapped as it was deemed to be discriminatory to disabled people and those with chronic conditions. Funnily enough there used to be barely any sickness absence when this policy was in place.

One of the problems is that it is so so easy to be signed off sick right now

It's rather backward look in not to pay staff when they're ill. You get people coming in and passing their illness aound, and if you're ill you're usually not able to work at full capacity.

Self employed for 22 years. Never had a day off sick. I am customer facing so can't even hide behind a laptop if I feel shit. If I don't work I don't get paid. Have worked with a broken arm, umbilical hernia (had it repaired on a Saturday back at work on the Monday). Worked until I was 37weeks pregnant, had baby at 37 weeks 1 day. Went back when baby was 6 weeks old.
Worst was bereavement, lost someone very close and needed time to grieve, had to keep going.
My advice....self employment is not all that!

Yes it's way too easy to get signed off for anything nowadays. An online form to GP, and people don't even have to speak to them, never mind see them in some cases. Obviously most people don't take the piss but of course there are those who do, especially in jobs with good sick pay.

Im a single parent on minimum wage. Thankfully Ive never been ill enough to not go into work. If I has paid sick leave I would have taken the odd day off rather than struggling on. Thankfully I do work from home so I can force myself to get through the shift.

Some people have no choice, I was NHS and continued working untill I had a full breakdown on the ward with a violent patient. Matron, sister and csm all came rushing to help get me sorted and home till I recovered. Another colleague kept going till her husband came home and found her in the bath with blood everywhere where luckily unsuccessfully she hadn't been able to slit her wrists, other colleagues also didn't go off till nearly too late. It's not a easy job on the frontline. I found it and the homelife I had at time meant I had no time in my life without any stress

I’m public sector but unpaid for the first 3 days of any individual sickness period. If I’m ill, I’m unpaid. Pre covid (and home working), people dragged themselves in and spread their germs to other staff and our very vulnerable clients.