To think that Insulate Britain are an absolute menace…

[Flawedperfection]

Just that really. Currently listening to LBC radio.
And they should be held to account for the death of the woman last week who couldn’t reach an hospital for 6 hours, following what would normally have been a much shorter journey. An oncologist also couldn’t get to work, where she was surely urgently needed.
I understand they have a message, but what if they do more help than good?
What do you think?

Good news about the injunction!

I agree with what black country wench has written regarding suffrage.
In addition to reading historians I listened to my working class family growing up: first hand sources.

"The first London branch of the WSPU was formed by the docks in Canning Town by Annie Kenney and local activist Minnie Baldock, along with Sylvia Pankhurst and Dora Montefiore. More branches soon opened in Poplar, Bow, Stepney and Limehouse. Most of the huge marches and demonstrations in London which put the WSPU in the headlines over the next few years were populated by working-class women from the East End, many of whom routinely gave up their only free day in the week to walk to Westminster and back."

Even the most cursory google will give you a ton of detail, including names, of working-class suffragettes. They formed the bulk of the WSPU. Yes, there were serious rifts with upper-class women leaders, some of whom behaved incredibly badly (looking at you, Christabel Pankhurst), but that doesn't diminish the work of these working-class suffragettes, just makes it even more remarkable what they achieved. Why are you so determined to erase these women from their own history?

eastendwomensmuseum.org/the-womens-hall

www.bl.uk/votes-for-women/articles/women-quite-unknown-working-class-women-in-the-suffrage-movement

Sigh. archeryannie posted her “you have to be kidding” comment before @BlackCountryWench2 said ANYTHING about classes in the suffragettes so this was 100% in response to not knowing history re: how women got the vote, that is the suffragettes changing tactic and the vote being granted after WW1, not due to militant demonstrations. @ArcheryAnnie You cannot now pretend your comment was after, and responding to her comment about upper class suffragettes.

The real question is: you throw out four names. Minnie Baldock “broke contact with the increasingly militant WSPU” years before women got the vote AND before WW1, so BlackCountryWrench2 isn’t wrong yet. During WW1, she was actually doing exactly what BCW2 mentioned so this was a TERRIBLE argument on your side. It’s on a “quick Google search” of her.

And it says right under Annie Kenney’s history:
“ At the outbreak of World War I in 1914, Emmeline Pankhurst called an end to suffragette militancy and urged the women to become actively involved in war work by taking on jobs that had traditionally been regarded as in the male preserve,[16] as most of those men were now absent at the front. This was set in train through the pages of The Suffragette, relaunched on 16 April 1915 with the slogan that it was 'a thousand times more the duty of the militant Suffragettes to fight the Kaiser for the sake of liberty than it was to fight anti-Suffrage Governments'. In autumn 1915 Kenney accompanied Emmeline Pankhurst, Flora Drummond, Norah Dacre Fox and Grace Roe to South Wales, the Midlands and Clydeside on a recruiting and lecture tour to encourage trade unions to support war work.[17] Kenney took her message as far afield as France and the United States.” So she supported exactly what BlackCountryWrench said. That a working class suffragette wasn’t out militantly demonstrating from 1914-1918.

The other two names you provided were upper class: Sylvia, daughter of Emmeline Pankhurst, and Dora Montefiore. Did you just not check?

So again, honestly, did you just decide to pick up on the working class bit when you were wrong about the WW1 part or what? And you picked two examples that don’t disprove your opponent’s point and then tell her she needs to educate herself more? Bad look.

Comparisons to other groups is not relevant. These people are causing deaths and huge damage to lives and if the injunction does not work may be direct action from drivers to remove the people from the roads is another alternative - what is sauce for the goose etc.

SudokuWillNotSaveYou don't be so disingenuous - the links I set out were in reply to the ludicrous "first hand sources" post. And you didn't read what I linked to, did you?

And of course I know that Sylvia Pankhurst and Dora Montefiore were upper class (ah, yes, Montefiore, that traditional working class surname) - I named Sylvia's bloody sister as one of the ones who behaved very badly towards working-class suffragettes. But there presence doesn't magically disappear all the working-class suffragettes that the para - cd&pd from one of the links - describes. It's not a mystery why resources from the time are more likely to talk about (and name) the upper-class women involved. It's the same now, ffs!

None of your post changes that what BlackCountryWench and AGreenerShadeOfKale said about the suffragettes - that they were a movement of upper-class women, while working class women were too busy making nails in their back gardens, or whatever - isn't accurate or true.

You have over interpreted my post of support for Wench's position archery Annie. I do know there were many working class suffragettes.
As to would we have had widening if suffrage without them. Imo yes.

Anyway as mentioned by a pp it's rather an irrelevant point imo.

Judge these folk on their own idiocy.

I didn’t say that there were no working class suffragettes. What I was pointing out was that - much like XR and IB today - the extreme end of political activity was led or mainly perpetrated by the upper and middle class sections of the movement, who had the economic means to do so. Walking to Westminster and back on your day off is not the same as going on hunger strike when you would normally never be hungry, trying to give a leaflet to a jockey or chaining yourself to railings. I would never ever denigrate the contribution of working class women, but cannot for a second imagine my great-grandmother being able to leave her children uncared for, her husband not fed and the household being short of an income while she chained herself to some railings for a few days to make a political point, no matter how much she wanted the vote or believed in the movement. She was a munitions worker during the Great War, by the way.

"but cannot for a second imagine my great-grandmother being able to leave her children uncared for, her husband not fed and the household being short of an income while she chained herself to some railings for a few days to make a political point, no matter how much she wanted the vote or believed in the movement"

All that means is that your imagination isn't very good. Almost everything we as women have gained in the last century (including the radical notion that maybe, just maybe, husbands can feed themselves without having their wives to serve them) has resulted from action taken by women who didn't have the money, didn't have the time, didn't have the energy, didn't have the support, and who had kids to feed - but who did it anyway.

As @AGreenerShadeofKale has pointed out it’s irrelevant, so I won’t let myself get drawn in further or further derail the thread.

It’s absolutely right to “judge them on their own idiocy.” And the idiocy is tremendous.

The man with the degree in radical campaign design who is running Insulate Britain just won’t stop being awful. He OWNS and is renting out (to people with a hell of a lot less money than him) a horrible uninsulated farm building with the worst energy rating possible and he won’t even fix that. He could insulate it tomorrow! It’s just more proof they don’t really care about insulating a single building.

The fact is that doesn’t matter if there were working class suffragettes (for this argument); it has nothing to do with the current people clogging the motorways, as the head of the current protests is shitting on working class people he rents to (who will be freezing come winter) and CURRENT protestors ARE mostly middle class and we have proof. Facts about the “working class” being largely absent from these current selfish arsehats - Extinction Britain and their offshoots:
85% hold a university degree (twice the national average)
Most are self-employed or not “traditionally employed”
2/3rds identify as middle class
3/4ths of those arrested live below the Severn Wash line
1/3rd of those arrested were from the West Country with emphasis “in Stroud, Frome, and Totnes”

First-hand source for that info:
cusp.ac.uk/themes/p/xr-study/
Source about Roger Hallam and his farm insulation:
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1492186/extinction-rebellion-co-founder-rents-old-building-farm-employees/amp

The man with the degree in radical campaign design who is running Insulate Britain just won’t stop being awful. He OWNS and is renting out (to people with a hell of a lot less money than him) a horrible uninsulated farm building with the worst energy rating possible and he won’t even fix that. He could insulate it tomorrow! It’s just more proof they don’t really care about insulating a single building.
Bloody hell ! I so did not know that, what an absolute disgrace!

Actually someone else just sent me a link to this chap storming off a tv interview this morning. Caught bang to rights!

@LoislovesStewie

Actually someone else just sent me a link to this chap storming off a tv interview this morning. Caught bang to rights!

He really didn't come over well on GMB this morning. Complete prick!

The crumbling building has an energy rating of G – the worst possible – with a recent report saying there was no insulation in the roof or walls

I didn’t think you could rent out a property which wasn’t at least an E

I know when you look at potential BTL property to buy that it does on the particulars that you can’t rent it the place out

Personally I would charge those involved with manslaughter and also make it possible that they can be held responsible to pay any monies that any business or individual lost

Maybe if it hits them in the pocket they might realise the issues they cause.

Yes we need to look at ways to bring down our carbon footprint but having people sitting in traffic with their engines idling is just making things worse

Eh, I wasn't the one to introduce the suffragettes - I came on here just to correct the ahistorical nonsense that BlackCountryWench had posted.

You’re 100% right about the carbon footprint, @Bythemillpond.

It’s just impossible to tell what Insulate Britain claim to care about. Do they claim they care about insulating buildings for the sake of freezing people? Then why is their head leaving people freezing in a farm he owns?

And if they care about insulation because of the carbon footprint, then why are they forcing cars to sit for hours on the M25, causing a much bigger carbon footprint than normal?

Then again, what do you expect from people who are willing to follow Radical Campaign Design Man, with the non-insulated farm, who in addition to EVERYTHING else, told a German newspaper that since millions of people have been killed regularly in history, the Holocaust “was a normal event” and “just another fuckery in history.” He said even worse about Germany - them being “so obsessed” with the Holocaust that they “can create a paralysis in actually learning the lessons from it.” He’s banned from Extinction Rebellion Germany.

No wonder he seemed so awful on GMB. I wouldn’t follow this man onto the M25 and I surely wouldn’t be involved in an organization he founded.

Source:
www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/20/extinction-rebellion-founders-holocaust-remarks-spark-fury

I wouldn’t be surprised if they try this again cars and lorries are going to speed up to get past them before they get stopped and a few are going to end up dead or maimed.

Hallam put his veg business up for sale in 2015, prior to that his company was a Wwoof host - people worked on his farm in exchange for accommodation.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the same is going on with his current tenants.

wwoof.org.uk/news/opportunity-organic-grower-organic-veg-business-sale

@Bythemillpond

I wouldn’t be surprised if they try this again cars and lorries are going to speed up to get past them before they get stopped and a few are going to end up dead or maimed.

Hopefully.

I wish the Police would step away & let the public deal with it - as they did with the idiots on the tube train roofs the other year.

Hopefully the new rules will mean they can be jailed for a bit, every little helps....

Is that interview for real. Why are ‘activists’ so stupid? Is it a pre- requisite for them for be dense? He kept saying ‘future of this country’ - huh what? Has the UK left planet Earth for somewhere that isn’t impacted by emissions from China and US? What difference does insulating homes in the UK make? Zero difference.