To think the royal family are a bloody embarrassment THREAD 2

[MyOhMySimon]

Carrying on from Thread 1.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4347032-To-think-the-royal-family-are-a-bloody-embarrassment?msgid=110733144#110733144

Haven't seen the OP around, thread 1 is about to run out and someone asked for a new thread.

@Blossomtoes

She’d probably agree that she’s lucky.

I don’t hate the player I hate the game

I remember Theresa May curtsying to William one time when she was PM. It really hit home. She’s the PM and has achieved so much in her life and she’s there bowing and scrapping to Wills? Bizarre.

Yes! I thought exactly the same thing. I may disagree with her politics but to To see her curtseying to a man who hadn't achieved a fraction of what she had was bizarre.

If he is really as modern and progressive as some monarchists claim, why does he not call a halt to it? Surely he can see the absurdity and what a bad look it is?

Yeah. He/They can call a halt to it but they seem to secretly bask in this, as another sign of their superiority, in the guise of maintaining tradition.

My understanding is that bowing and curtsying are now optional so it’s a matter of personal choice. Given Theresa May’s age and politics, it’s hardly surprising that she chose to curtsy.

Like saluting in the armed forces, it’s a gesture of respect for the rank, not the individual. Victoria Cross winner Beharry still has to salute officers whose achievements are a fraction of his.

Yes, that's the difference between them and us.

Speaking for myself: I would absolutely hate to have people grovelling in front of me, as if I was superior to them when I knew it wasn't true. What an absurd fraud I would feel. And at some level they must also know that they have no claim to superiority and how absurd and demeaning this pantomime is.

Yes but rank in the armed forces (unlike for the Royals) still has to be worked for and achieved.

@Livingtothefull

Yes but rank in the armed forces (unlike for the Royals) still has to be worked for and achieved.

It really doesn’t. A wet behind the ears First Lieutenant straight out of Sandhurst is saluted by a Sergeant Major with 30 years service.

When Theresa May did that embarrassing curtsey William should have said with a smile "no, please, no need for that". Instead he accepted it as his God given right. They really don't get the mood of the people.

When Theresa May did that embarrassing curtsey William should have said with a smile "no, please, no need for that". Instead he accepted it as his God given right. They really don't get the mood of the people.

Exactly. Even pretense/making a show of not wanting it is beyond them. They can't be arsed.

I am sure you are right @Blossomtoes if you have first hand knowledge of the services. But that doesn't imo detract from the point that bowing/curtseying to the Royals is just a bad look.

Although you state (and maybe correctly) that these gestures acknowledge the rank not the person, it feels and looks personal with regard to the Royals; probably because they are a very small set of people whom everyone knows. Also, unlike acknowledging military rank, there is no grey area, no possibility that it is achievement that is being respected. With the Royals it is purely their status, nothing else, that is being bowed/curtseyed to.

As far as civilian life is concerned, we are becoming a much less deferential society; bowing and curtseying to 'social superiors' was commonplace at one time so I am sure doing it to Royals did not look incongruous. But it does now and surely they must know it.

With the Royals it is purely their status, nothing else, that is being bowed/curtseyed to.

That’s what I just said! 🤷‍♀️

Yes and I am saying that I think bowing/curseying to status is wrong and demeaning to everyone concerned. I think my post was very clear.

@Livingtothefull

Yes and I am saying that I think bowing/curseying to status is wrong and demeaning to everyone concerned. I think my post was very clear.

I’ve always loved the Eleanor Roosevelt quote: No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.

Same applies to bowing and curtsying now it’s optional. If you don’t consent to feeling demeaned, don’t do it. It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest so it wouldn’t demean me.

So Q turns up at an event with Prince Andrew in tow, and you'd curtsey to them and be absolutely fine with it? Or just curtsey to her, because she only provides the funding for him to abuse teenagers and talk to arms traffickers and doesn't actually do it herself?

I don't feel inferior to anyone and I wouldn't feel any more inferior if I was forced to (I would have to be) curtsey to a Royal. Presumably Theresa May chose to curtsey and wasn't forced to either.....but that doesn't mean we won't draw conclusions about how absurd and demeaning it looks, for both the curtseyer and the curtseyed-to.

Appearances are critical. I am not sure many monarchists would be happy to be spotted/photographed/publicised genuflecting to Prince Andrew at the moment...but why would they be concerned about how they would look? After all it is only his rank they are acknowledging not the (unpleasant) holder of the rank, so it shouldn't matter should it?

I’ve always loved the Eleanor Roosevelt quote: No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.

I'm not a fan of it, myself. I used to feel inferior when I was a child every time I was walloped and humiliated by a teacher, and I didn't give my consent. You don't always have the tools or the social power or the emotional ability to not feel affected by a degrading experience.

I know that Eleanor Roosevelt was saying, 'chin up, believe you're as good as the rest'; but the reality is that power imbalances are very divisive and very prevalent and very upsetting in many social situations.

This has probably already been discussed and I haven't had time to rtft so apologies.... but was anyone else gobsmacked to see Prince Andrew interviewed for the shoe about Prince Phillip which aired during the week???
I thought is was do brass necked and stank of arrogance! I got so annoyed I had to switch it off!
I wondered if this was the RF's way of testing the water for Andrew to return to public life?!

I always find it a little amusing when people say it's personal choice to bow and curtsey.

Well yes so they say but can you imagine an age-old tradition that they've never actually officially broken, they've never said "oh no, please don't. You don't have to do that anymore" to anyone in the middle of bowing and scraping, and someone who's looking to be in their good graces just decides not to bow or curtsey when everyone else around him/her did the opposite? Can you imagine the way it would look? Almost like a litte show of rebellion. I believe a notable someone did it and it was news, wasn't it?

Could you imagine Meghan in her brown or beige coat, on the steps with everyone, standing upright while everyone else bowed/curtseyed as the Queen walked past? Do you think the public would have said 'oh well its personal choice. She doesn't have to'. Do you think the RF officials (or whomever it was) told her she doesn't have to do so while training her to curtsey to the Queen and her royal seniors?
I don't think so.

Just more PR statements saying what isn't really happening behind closed doors. I'd say it's optional when they start saying so to people who still do. For now, they like it the way it is.

@yacketyyak

This has probably already been discussed and I haven't had time to rtft so apologies.... but was anyone else gobsmacked to see Prince Andrew interviewed for the shoe about Prince Phillip which aired during the week??? I thought is was do brass necked and stank of arrogance! I got so annoyed I had to switch it off! I wondered if this was the RF's way of testing the water for Andrew to return to public life?!

Yes. It was completely tone deaf. I was horrified. I think it was because nobody dared say no to him.

I'd say it's optional when they start saying so to people who still do.

But that would make it non optional because it would be stopping people who want to do it.

@SpindleWorld

I’ve always loved the Eleanor Roosevelt quote: No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.

I'm not a fan of it, myself. I used to feel inferior when I was a child every time I was walloped and humiliated by a teacher, and I didn't give my consent. You don't always have the tools or the social power or the emotional ability to not feel affected by a degrading experience.

I know that Eleanor Roosevelt was saying, 'chin up, believe you're as good as the rest'; but the reality is that power imbalances are very divisive and very prevalent and very upsetting in many social situations.

I agree with this. I am in a position of (mostly) not feeling inferior now but it took a long time to get there...many people grow up being made to feel inferior through no fault of their own, through their social and environmental circumstances.

Consent, to be meaningful, should be freely given from a position of knowledge, power and relative equality. Unfortunately monarchy by its very existence underpins and legitimises systems of inequality.

True. If people want to make fools of themselves by bowing to arms traffickers and nonces they must be allowed to do that. It's their divine right.

@MyOhMySimon

So agree with your post. In the excellent Norman Baker book I've linked before, there were all these bizarre practices he outlined.

For a visit, everyone had to be there hours before the royal turned up, no one could be sat in their company (obviously being in a wheelchair is different) and on one particular visit, some there wanted to go up to a balcony type area to see better but no one was allowed as that would be looking down on the Queen and it's just not done.

The aides are there hours before telling you what you can and can't do. Don't speak unless spoken to, don't offer your hand unless the royal does first etc.

It would take a brave person not to curtsey or bob down in a line of people

But that would make it non optional because it would be stopping people who want to do it

Who on earth would want to do it? Rees-Mogg maybe to get back in Q's good books after the prorogation of parliament and his part in it. And he was born over a century ago anyway

@Livingtothefull

So agree with your post, I felt inferior and pathetic for years of my life, and apart from the odd uncomfortable flashback to those feelings, I'm mostly ok with everything, and I ain't curtseying to some superior person who is just another human being!