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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is it going to be just mums and just dads forever now?

283 replies

ParentsandParents · 15/09/2021 19:38

My wife has just had our first baby and well as splitting the load as much as possible I've been trying to join in with the community of new parents and be an active and equal participant. It's tough though. Partly because all the parenting classes, activities and meet ups are held during the week and I'm working at the moment, though I'll be doing three months of SPL later in the year. And partly because every new parents group, chat or meet up I join seems to either just be the women who've given birth and nobody else, or to quickly split into separate groups, meet ups and chats for 'mums' and 'dads' with the 'mums' often initiating this. Even when the point of meeting up or chatting is nothing to do with being a man or woman, and everything to do with being a new parent and / or meeting new people. It hasn't been like this so far in my life, I've always been in and seen mixed groups at work, in friendships and in activities. Is it unreasonable to have expected that new parents would want to spend time with other new parents, or that men and women could talk about our kids and be friends, or does something about new parenthood send everyone spiraling back to the 50's with the men in the pub talking about craft ale and what football team their kids will support and the women in the park talking about books and feeding? Will this change when our kid(s) are older or is this the way it's always going to be now we have a kid.

OP posts:
Rosesareyellow · 16/09/2021 12:33

I went to a ‘new parent new baby’ group. That’s the only one I went to. Not many dads did attend but they were more than welcome - one dad came along on his own when his partner was away at an appointment. I’m not sure who is going to baby groups to loudly talk about cracked nipples and vaginal tearing - when you first go most people there are strangers, and even though they’d just gone through the same thing it’s not something I’d quickly get into a conversation about with someone I barely know, especially if it’s a whole group discussion. You might pair off with another mum you’ve got to know well to talk about it but the dads aren’t going to sit ready to eavesdrop on that.

Mummyoflittledragon · 16/09/2021 12:38

@SarahAndQuack
I’m sorry you’ve experienced homophobia. However, I don’t find the responses on here homophobic.

I really agree with this comment upthread If you want to nurture equality, going after post-natal women who want a space to recover together seems a bit of an odd choice. Op says she is happy for women to have their own space. But at the same time is fed up with there only being a space for post partum women and the men only wanting to go out for a drink. I see the baby is 5 months old. But it is still very early days. The mums are all still on maternity leave. A lot will change once they’re back at work.

All of this will be a moot point in a few months @ParentsandParents. You seem to be catastrophising about what the future will hold. You’ll naturally be part of the women’s group when you take PL and as your dcs grow older, you’ll both mix with single, couple and one partner in a couple friends etc.

Again, wait until the spring. Everyone will be back at work. The weather will be nicer. The babies will be mobile. Life will have changed. You seem very impatient and taking this all very personally.

SarahAndQuack · 16/09/2021 13:00

[quote Mummyoflittledragon]@SarahAndQuack
I’m sorry you’ve experienced homophobia. However, I don’t find the responses on here homophobic.

I really agree with this comment upthread If you want to nurture equality, going after post-natal women who want a space to recover together seems a bit of an odd choice. Op says she is happy for women to have their own space. But at the same time is fed up with there only being a space for post partum women and the men only wanting to go out for a drink. I see the baby is 5 months old. But it is still very early days. The mums are all still on maternity leave. A lot will change once they’re back at work.

All of this will be a moot point in a few months @ParentsandParents. You seem to be catastrophising about what the future will hold. You’ll naturally be part of the women’s group when you take PL and as your dcs grow older, you’ll both mix with single, couple and one partner in a couple friends etc.

Again, wait until the spring. Everyone will be back at work. The weather will be nicer. The babies will be mobile. Life will have changed. You seem very impatient and taking this all very personally.[/quote]
But you are being a bit homophobic. I know it's only accidental, but you just wrote 'the OP' and then referred to 'the mums' being on maternity leave.

You mean, the other mums.

You don't mean 'the OP isn't a mum because lesbian partners can't be mums'.

But you said it. And it's this sort of drip drip drip of microaggressions that can feel really shit.

The OP is in a minority amongst mums, but that doesn't mean she isn't a mother, or that she doesn't get to wonder what her place is.

ParentsandParents · 16/09/2021 13:28

[quote SarahAndQuack]@ParentsandParents - that's quite similar to us. My DP had the baby because she was older, but also because I have a history of pregnancy loss. I hope you manage to get your health issues sorted!

As to how I've found it ... TBH, it was a shock. We had lots of microaggressions/ bits of homophobic treatment that added up. I do think there was a perception we were doing it 'wrong'. A weird thing I found was that, although everyone says it would be wonderful if more couples shared the care for a newborn, in practice, there is a lot of hostility or confusion. One time DP took a well-earned nap and the HV turned up to weigh DD. It was explicitly a visit for DD not DP (DD was under extra observation) and we'd checked this was so. But still, the HV was very unhappy that it was me not DP and clearly found it totally inappropriate. If she'd said she wanted to see DP to discuss breastfeeding or something that would have been fine, but we'd been specifically told she didn't!

That stuff gets a bit better once you're past the newborn stage but it doesn't actually go away. DD is 4.5 and all social groups are still basically gender split. I have got better at initiating conversation with the dads but it is always about making an effort and knowing you may get blanked/hostile responses.

The other thing DP and I both notice is that, long beyond the point where you stop talking about BF or other birth-mum-related stuff, social groups are uneasy with two mums. You mess up the dynamic by being a couple when everyone else is just on their own, or, if it's couples socialising, people don't know which of you to talk to. I find it really weird and it's clearly just social conditioning, but it is isolating.

I used to love MN, and I was on here for years before DD, but sadly I have to say it's either got a lot more homophobic, or it was always that way and I've just noticed. You will get a lot of threads where people take great pleasure in implying you're not a mum, or you are not really your child's parent. It's depressing but it's the case. There is still a lot of good support and I'm sure the majority of posters are not homophobic, but it has been a real eye-opener.

I suppose the thing that gets me is the casualness of it all - eg., DP and I recently did some legal paperwork and one of the questions was who lived in the house. We said our daughter. He wanted to know who DD's biological parents were - it's totally irrelevant! Or, recently, when DD started at school, we found I was getting emails and not DP, and when DP said could they pop her on the mailing list, the reply was 'we usually contact mum' (which is, of course, sexist as well, but it's hurtful to be constantly treated as if 'mum' is someone who isn't you).

DP and I have tried to socialise with other groups of same-sex parents, although covid has made it hard. I really don't think the issues go away after babyhood, though. I wish they did. But I think what actually happens is you get a tougher skin about people insisting you can't possibly be mum, or your partner must be a man, or whatever. Sorry![/quote]
So sorry to hear about your pregnancy losses @SarahAndQuack. Thank you for sharing some of your experiences though. It's interesting to hear from someone else who is in the same very small group.

We're still new-ish to parenting, but a fair bit of what you're describing sadly rings true. We've had some great people but also some HV's, hospital staff etc. not understanding who we are despite us explaining and it being right there in our notes, or repeatedly asking my DW where 'dad' is, or which one of us is the 'real mum'. Or after we explain that we used a donor, asking if we want to put the dad’s details or mine into forms (we don't know the donor’s details as we used a bank, and putting him on forms would be illegal). There was one pretty upsetting incident where DW was in labour and the temporary midwife who was covering our brilliant midwife's lunch break consistently misunderstood who I was and referred to me as DW's 'friend' and bossily told me not to help DW change her pad or stand near her vagina as I needed to give her privacy.

A lot of the responses / welcomes we've had from other new parents have been amazing, but there have definitely been some odd ones. Jokes in NCT about how if I was with the men they wouldn't be able to ask sex questions, or some women who have wanted to talk about their husbands being useless and then turned to DW and said grumpily that she mustn't understand this because she has a wife and is so lucky. Or odd questions to me about how I feel being - 'a mum but not a mum' or asking whether I've bonded with the baby. 95% of the time it's been great, but the 5% does sting for us both.

OP posts:
ParentsandParents · 16/09/2021 13:42

I’m not catastrophising or getting impatient. I’m a first time parent of a five month old. Posting for the first time on an open parenting forum. Describing something my wife and I have personally experienced, and asking parents with older children, what their experiences are and how they change with time. Is that not okay?

OP posts:
Otherpeoplesteens · 16/09/2021 14:29

PP have talked about the "we usually contact Mum" frustrations. It is just as bad for married hetero couples too.

We got a letter in 2020 from the Sure Start Centre (which, around here, delivers some interim checks instead of the HV team) telling us about DD's next routine check. The envelope was addressed "To the parent/guardian [singular] of Maisie-Chardonnay Rooney-Smith*". The letter inside wasn't topped, but just opened with "Your child is due a x month development check which will take place on 01/10/2019 at 12.00am. Please be at home with your child at this time. Fathers/partners may also attend."

When I, the father, opened the door they asked for DD's mother, and got a bit shitty when I told them she was at work and they would be dealing with me.

Yes, it had the previous year listed for the appointment and yes, the appointment time was indicated as midnight.

*Obviously, I hope, not her real name

SarahAndQuack · 16/09/2021 14:42

@Otherpeoplesteens

PP have talked about the "we usually contact Mum" frustrations. It is just as bad for married hetero couples too.

We got a letter in 2020 from the Sure Start Centre (which, around here, delivers some interim checks instead of the HV team) telling us about DD's next routine check. The envelope was addressed "To the parent/guardian [singular] of Maisie-Chardonnay Rooney-Smith*". The letter inside wasn't topped, but just opened with "Your child is due a x month development check which will take place on 01/10/2019 at 12.00am. Please be at home with your child at this time. Fathers/partners may also attend."

When I, the father, opened the door they asked for DD's mother, and got a bit shitty when I told them she was at work and they would be dealing with me.

Yes, it had the previous year listed for the appointment and yes, the appointment time was indicated as midnight.

*Obviously, I hope, not her real name

You're quoting me saying 'we usually contact mum'. And the next thing I said was that this was obviously sexist.

But, please, go on telling me how it's just as bad for married hetero couples, I obviously didn't understand that bit yet.

Otherpeoplesteens · 16/09/2021 16:26

But, please, go on telling me how it's just as bad for married hetero couples, I obviously didn't understand that bit yet.

I suspect this is because you have no real intention of understanding it. I see little mileage in competitive victimhood, which a number of your posts seem to flirt with, but please don't belittle the negative experiences I have had - some of them virtually identical to yours - just because I'm straight.

You complained about the HV expecting to deal with the birth mother even for matters which are nothing to do with them, implying that your contribution to parenting was somehow less valid. I've had the exact same thing, even to the point where the worker (Sure Start as explained above, not HV) actually asked whether or not I had enough knowledge of our child to complete one of the development questionnaires - the sort of thing my wife could not have done.

The letters we get are clearly aimed at mothers, because fathers are clearly an afterthought. I quoted the exact text of a letter above. We were both so insulted by it that we danced all over our local Councillor about it and she was equally incensed that a council-commissioned service could be so dismissive of the role of a father. The template has since been changed. See, I'm not content to sit and moan on the internet about it. I want it changed to work for non-traditional family set-ups.

Our GP surgery sends SMS messages about our DCs to the mother and not to me, even though I am the SAHP and am the only one who deals with them. Despite asking several times for this to be changed to include me they just don't bother, or can't. So there are real, practical implications too, such as when I miss imms and vacs. I wrote to NHS England, who commission this GP practice and they haven't bothered to reply.

My wife had serious complications after both births. With DD1, the midwives refused to let me take her out of hospital even though my DW was attached to an infuser and unable to care for the baby. DD's grandparent was dying in another hospital and thus denied the opportunity to meet their first grandchild, even though she was fit for discharge and I have full parental responsibility with all legal rights. I won a human rights lawsuit over that...

...which made it quite shocking that the exact same thing happened when DD2 was born. This time my DW was in a coma, and yet they somehow still insisted that DD2, fit for discharge, should stay in the hospital while I was asked to leave - this was during lockdown 1 and they really didn't want anyone in the hospital. It was only when a (male) consultant overruled the midwives and told them in some quite graphic Anglo-Saxon to get real that I was deemed capable enough to take the baby home, despite having been DD1's primary carer for every day of her life.

So yeah, my experience is that the whole system is designed to exclude or at least marginalise the parent who didn't give birth. Sometimes it is anti-men, I have absolutely no doubt about it. I suspect there may well be homophobia too; many of my gay friends report the same things.

But I suspect more often than not it is just simple thoughtlessness. I am ex-public sector myself and know full well that most things are simply done from the perspective of, and the convenience of, the service provider rather than the service user, and we're just expected to put up with it.

SarahAndQuack · 16/09/2021 16:59

You seem very angry. I'm not sure why. You quoted a post of mine then pointed out the treatment I was describing also applied to hetero couples (ie., it was rooted in sexism against dads, not homophobia). I pointed out I'd already said this. And yes, I was a bit ticked that you carefully explained the sexism as if I'd not already said it ... why wouldn't I be?

It sounds as if you've had some very difficult experiences, and I am sorry for them. It is great that you managed to win a legal case, and push back against the system.

I think I'm going to disengage now, because we're derailing the issue from the OP's actual point.

cherish123 · 16/09/2021 17:28

I remember one dad at a toddler group saying he felt intimidated by all the women. However, most have a mix. Try toddler groups in a church hall. Find one that's relaxed and suits you. To be honest, I found there were quite a few dads but often they assume it will be women st these things which is quite sexist.

user1472151176 · 16/09/2021 17:30

It is a difficult situation but new mums will always migrate to other new mums so they can talk about intimate things that most men don't want to hear about or can even comprehend. I don't mean that to sound rude but unless you've been through childbirth you couldn't possibly understand the physical demand it has on a woman's body or the raging hormones that come with it - no matter how good a listener you are very few women would happily talk about this with another man - especially 1st time mums. Women also split into even smaller groups breastfeeding/non breastfeeding, c section natural. I had post natal depression after my first child and I wouldn't have been happy talking to another man during that phase, it was hard talking to anyone. So yes, groups should be all inclusive but I would say women will always outnumber men at these groups.
I would also like to add that I speak to just as many dad's on the school run as I do mums. It's a different world.

calvados · 16/09/2021 17:31

I would not have wanted to discuss my episiotomy with men present tbh but I understand you may feel a bit left out. But you did not give birth! Maybe organise something general like a quiz night for the new parents so that personal conversation is on a back burner and fun and enjoying each other’s company with an understanding of your new parental status being the common thread?

McNuggetsAndMcFlurries · 16/09/2021 17:40

My boyfriend came to a breastfeeding support group with me without issue and we're going to a music class tomorrow 🤷‍♀️

eeyore228 · 16/09/2021 17:41

OP I think you should try to arrange something. Women want things to change but the initial problem is that many of the issues are sore breasts or csection pain. What we dont consider is that discussion including men could help them to.understand the difficulty faced by their partner/wife. We want inclusivity and we want dads to step up but the reality is they are often shut out and once that starts its harder to turn around.

ManifestDestinee · 16/09/2021 17:42

@McNuggetsAndMcFlurries

My boyfriend came to a breastfeeding support group with me without issue and we're going to a music class tomorrow 🤷‍♀️
Without anyone stating an issue...but you can guarantee he made other women uncomfortable. Nobody wants a man at a BF support group.
Tessabelle74 · 16/09/2021 17:46

It's lovely you want to attend these things without child, sadly it's not possible for most men because of work or they're just not interested in some cases (my husband!) All the school admin falls to women for the same reasons hence a lack of Dads on WhatsApp groups PTA etc

Tessabelle74 · 16/09/2021 17:46

With your child not without child Confused

Thisgroupneverceasestoamazeme · 16/09/2021 17:58

I totally get what you’re saying. I’m a female and a mum but I didn’t give birth to my child and even then I feel a bit on the sidelines because I don’t have a birth story to share (or at least not one that ended with a live baby) in baby groups and classes. My OH hates coming along to anything like that because he feels like he sticks out like a sore thumb. I know parents who’ve bitten the ballet and set up a weekend playgroup for working parents and that has parents of both genders. Maybe that’s something you could consider?

Plumtree391 · 16/09/2021 18:00

If your wife has only just had your first baby, I wouldn't have thought groups were very important, or helpful. Who wants to sit with a load of mothers (usually), talking about their bodies, feeding and the inevitable competitive parenting? It's not a community really.

You don't want to do it, so don't. Plenty of women don't!

Just do what you can with parenting your child lovingly, make sure your wife has plenty of rest and support her however she wants.

Good luck and congratulations.

SpideySenseTingles · 16/09/2021 18:02

I think in my experience all the baby groups I went to were open for anyone looking after a baby, but were mostly attended by mums, grandmothers and female childminders.

That's probably because of all the reasons others have stated.

The groups are a good chance to get out of the house during the week but most of my emotional support came from friends and family. We (DH, DD and I) spent time at the weekends with other families with young children, we would all hang out together (both sexes) and often swapped stories, struggles and tips.

My DH wouldn't be interested in an organised parents group, either mixed or just for Dads. But he is a very active parent and he is in community with other parents - it's just all informal and friendship based.

Also, now that I am no longer on maternity leave and have a school aged child I'm not interested in joining parenting groups either...except for Mumsnet and that's mostly because I love the drama!

TrifleCat · 16/09/2021 18:09

If you want to nurture equality, going after post-natal women who want a space to recover together seems a bit of an odd choice

I also agree with this.

OP as a parent who didn’t carry and birth your child your experience will be different to the parent who did carry and birth your child, it doesn’t make you any less of a parent but it does make your experience different.

EwwSprouts · 16/09/2021 18:11

I used to take DS to a music for toddlers that was run by a male musician. He was fab (played pubs in the evenings) and still there was only ever one other dad in the group. With flexi working more common it's a shame things haven't improved.

I've found as the DC have got older the parents mix is more equal even if it's only because one parent is ferrying one child to a party and the other parent another to sport/drama/sleepover.

Pantsomime · 16/09/2021 18:15

OP I think it’s normal as most mums still have a very sore bum or CS wound and are in pain/ discomfort the whole time and often still in shock over the whole birth experience. Once they have come to terms with it a bit, they will become less introspective and outward looking. Stick with it, it’s not personal

Chamonixshoopshoop · 16/09/2021 18:16

Don’t lose hope @ParentsandParents
In our primary school mums and dads all hang out, in fact my husband spends more time with the other mums than I do!
He’s the one that’s made parent friends who we end up having dinner with, hanging out with… so it does get more ‘mixed’ again.

Plumtree391 · 16/09/2021 18:31

@ParentsandParents

I’m not catastrophising or getting impatient. I’m a first time parent of a five month old. Posting for the first time on an open parenting forum. Describing something my wife and I have personally experienced, and asking parents with older children, what their experiences are and how they change with time. Is that not okay?
I think what you are asking is fine. I also think it will be easier for you to slot in to groups as you are a woman (I didn't realise before that you were, I thought you were a man). However going to such things is optional, nobody has to and I don't think they suit everybody, regardless of their sex or marital status.

You can but try.