Is it going to be just mums and just dads forever now?

[ParentsandParents]

My wife has just had our first baby and well as splitting the load as much as possible I've been trying to join in with the community of new parents and be an active and equal participant. It's tough though. Partly because all the parenting classes, activities and meet ups are held during the week and I'm working at the moment, though I'll be doing three months of SPL later in the year. And partly because every new parents group, chat or meet up I join seems to either just be the women who've given birth and nobody else, or to quickly split into separate groups, meet ups and chats for 'mums' and 'dads' with the 'mums' often initiating this. Even when the point of meeting up or chatting is nothing to do with being a man or woman, and everything to do with being a new parent and / or meeting new people. It hasn't been like this so far in my life, I've always been in and seen mixed groups at work, in friendships and in activities. Is it unreasonable to have expected that new parents would want to spend time with other new parents, or that men and women could talk about our kids and be friends, or does something about new parenthood send everyone spiraling back to the 50's with the men in the pub talking about craft ale and what football team their kids will support and the women in the park talking about books and feeding? Will this change when our kid(s) are older or is this the way it's always going to be now we have a kid.

OP, who organised these events?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say it was a woman.

I recommend you do your bit for gender equality by organising your own catch up, instead. You could kick it off by saying you want everyone to mingle, not split into genders.

I don't like it when men complain about gender equality and then stand around waiting for a woman to fix it for them.

Birthing and non-birthing parents don't have the same experience, and the biological element affects us in very striking ways around childbirth, more than most other things in modern society. That's one of the reasons it can be such a shock to some new mums, they haven't had that before in their lives. Recognizing that and observing it doesn't make people homophobic.

YY to that @LobsterNapkin.

New mothers in our society don't have ancient rituals or rites or the close companionship and help of other women that sustained and honoured women during and after childbirth in former times, and sometimes still do in other societies.

The physical, emotional, and spiritual transformation of a biological mother through pregnancy, childbirth, and the 'fourth trimester' is something society doesn't honour.

It is medicalised and commercialised instead.

You refer to the women who have given birth as ‘the mothers’, and define me as a woman who hasn’t gone through what ‘the mothers’ have. This reads as you saying that I’m not a mother and never will be and that lesbians and bi woman whose partners have given birth (and from the sounds of it adoptive mothers too), aren’t or can’t be real mothers because they didn’t give birth. I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way, but the drip drip drip of hearing little things like this as a gay woman add up to what feels like homophobia.

@ParentsandParents
I am truly sorry for coming across that way - it is not my intention to cast aspersions on any mothers who have not given birth or to imply that they are somehow less the real thing than biological mothers. I should have been clearer and used the term 'biological mothers'. However, this has connotations of mothers who placed children for adoption too, so there is a fine line to be trodden when it comes to wording.

There is always going to be the care provider and the money earner and often it's the Mum that provides the care initially therefore the Mum that goes to the baby groups. In my experience when the other parent is off work we would rather spend time as a family than going to groups, I used to use groups to get me out of the house to have some interaction with people but wouldn't necessarily want to take my partner along if he was free? We have kept in contact with the NCT group and do meet up as a group but it's a once every 6 months kind of thing.

And actually, the OP is the one who feels people are saying she can't be a real mother and they are bordering on homophobia, so I think you are wrong that she fully accepts/agrees with that assessment.

I didn't read her like that - I thought she was simply commenting factually on the way that references to 'the mums' implies she's not a mum?

It was me who said it might be homophobic to distinguish between 'the mums' and the OP, IIRC. I think it is, albeit in a very innocent way.

I see this a lot with adoptive parents too - there are regular threads on here where people talk through the benefits of terms like birth mother or bio mother (rather than 'natural mother,' which some of us grew up knowing as the term).

I don't think it's a bad thing to discuss how terminology might make people feel and I think it is not fair to say if a person is hurt by terminology that excludes them, the problem must be with them.

I do think it's really obvious the OP doesn't want to muscle in on the postpartum mums' group - she's said she's been invited to go but won't.

Wow, as a heterosexual mother this thread has really given me an insight into the underlying homophobia still bubbling under in our culture. I guess that’s the thing about baby groups- when all you have in common is having recently given birth, you end up rubbing shoulders with the kind of people you’d never normally associate with. For me it was not having a partner, but it’s clear from this thread that anybody who strays from the traditional norm can receive short shrift in these kinds of groups 🙄

Dear OP, it sounds a Teeny bit like you have just noticed that sexism still exists because all of a sudden it's affecting you.

What you have observed is definitely true, but the reasons why it happens are complicated and numerous and not all bad. I personally missed having male friends when I became a mum, and always reached out to the dads who were regularly in the playground at school. I know it was hard for the stay at home dads and the co-equal dads to feel fully engaged and it's great that you are trying to correct that.

But hang in there, because as your child gets older the other dads will get more involved in their care and you will find it's more of a mixed crowd. By the time you are standing on the touchline watching your daughter play football you'll find both mums and dads on the touchline with you.

@Localocal

Dear OP, it sounds a Teeny bit like you have just noticed that sexism still exists because all of a sudden it's affecting you.

What you have observed is definitely true, but the reasons why it happens are complicated and numerous and not all bad. I personally missed having male friends when I became a mum, and always reached out to the dads who were regularly in the playground at school. I know it was hard for the stay at home dads and the co-equal dads to feel fully engaged and it's great that you are trying to correct that.

But hang in there, because as your child gets older the other dads will get more involved in their care and you will find it's more of a mixed crowd. By the time you are standing on the touchline watching your daughter play football you'll find both mums and dads on the touchline with you.

Other dads?

I see no indication that this is the first time OP has been affected by sexism.

And this is one of many reasons why I made 0 effort whatsoever to make friends with other parents (and in fact, actively try to avoid them)

@Smarshian

In my experience women want support from women in those early days so that they can comfortably discuss THEIR issues as new parents, which are often vastly different to men’s, ie changes to their bodies, breastfeeding, contact napping, loss of identity due to being away from work etc. If you want to organise something for a mixed group I don’t see why you can’t though.

Why should this justify exclusion of men? Surely women need men to understand more about their endurance? Including men more could help reduce sexism in all settings: predominantly male, predominantly female and mixed.

@SarahAndQuack

And actually, the OP is the one who feels people are saying she can't be a real mother and they are bordering on homophobia, so I think you are wrong that she fully accepts/agrees with that assessment.

I didn't read her like that - I thought she was simply commenting factually on the way that references to 'the mums' implies she's not a mum?

It was me who said it might be homophobic to distinguish between 'the mums' and the OP, IIRC. I think it is, albeit in a very innocent way.

I see this a lot with adoptive parents too - there are regular threads on here where people talk through the benefits of terms like birth mother or bio mother (rather than 'natural mother,' which some of us grew up knowing as the term).

I don't think it's a bad thing to discuss how terminology might make people feel and I think it is not fair to say if a person is hurt by terminology that excludes them, the problem must be with them.

I do think it's really obvious the OP doesn't want to muscle in on the postpartum mums' group - she's said she's been invited to go but won't.

It's not that it's wrong that it affects them, but essentially those terms are based on the material realities of reproduction. Those aren't changing and trying to manipulate the language somehow to try and cover that over isn't doing anyone any favours. A parent who finds he or she is unable to have children will have to reconcile themselves to that intellectually and emotionally, and so will a parent who has a child through adoption or some other way. And that isn't usually easy, nor should we expect it to be. Big things in life are often quite difficult.

Conceptualizing it as homophobia comes out of a sense of it being unfair because it's different. But unfair is not the right category to think about these things in, really. The nature of human reproduction is a given, neither unfair nor unfair.

People are not excluding them because they talk about birth parents, and feeling like she doesn't quite fit in either group is because he experience is different than both. Circumstances mean the OPs experience is more unusual. Changing the words won't fix that.

I doubt that the postpartum mums would think she was muscling in if she attended, I wouldn't think it was out of place at all. She might not find she relates to their conversation, though I wouldn't assume that without trying it out. There will likely still be quite a few points of common interest.

No, sorry, @LobsterNapkin, I still don't really see how that makes sense.

You're absolutely right that all sorts of big things in life require us to come to terms with things that are unexpected, or even not quite what we wanted, and that's not really about 'fair' or 'unfair' but just about life requiring a certain amount of effort from all of us.

But you then say 'People are not excluding them because they talk about birth parents'.

But the precise point is, people are not talking about 'birth parents' here.

People are saying 'the mums' when they mean 'the mums other than the OP'.

It requires no manipulation of language whatsoever to say 'mum' or 'birth parent' - you've just done it yourself.

I'm at a loss as to why you think this is about changing words? Surely it is simply about not pretending you said 'birth parents' when you actually said 'mums'?

Why should this justify exclusion of men? Surely women need men to understand more about their endurance? Including men more could help reduce sexism in all settings: predominantly male, predominantly female and mixed

No this is a load of bollocks which takes away women's rights . Women are perfectly entitled to have female only groups to discuss these things .

No this is a load of bollocks which takes away women's rights . Women are perfectly entitled to have female only groups to discuss these things

Absolutely this ! Sometimes I just want to talk to someone who gets it.

I’m really uncomfortable with this idea that everything a person does has to be available to everyone else all of the time. We don’t have to include every single demographic of person in all our interactions.

This thread seems to have gone awry somewhat, when I think the initial question has in most part now been answered, by those with experience of older children. No, it won't all just be mums and dads forever now, as DC gets older that dynamic will shift. But it will still be a bit dominated by mums, because women as still often the primary carer even as kids get older, because yes, society isn't actually as equal as the OP possibly presumed.

@ejhhhhh

This thread seems to have gone awry somewhat, when I think the initial question has in most part now been answered, by those with experience of older children. No, it won't all just be mums and dads forever now, as DC gets older that dynamic will shift. But it will still be a bit dominated by mums, because women as still often the primary carer even as kids get older, because yes, society isn't actually as equal as the OP possibly presumed.

While I agree somewhat with what you say it's less about being "equal " and more about being "just life" . Women give birth/ they breast feed , get stitches etc and they may want to talk about it with other women . The OP is in a "less common situation" ( I know whatever phrase I use will be slated ) and as someone else said above there is all kinds of counselling giving for step parents to be but possibly none towards couples in this situation ?

@SarahAndQuack

No, sorry, *@LobsterNapkin*, I still don't really see how that makes sense.

You're absolutely right that all sorts of big things in life require us to come to terms with things that are unexpected, or even not quite what we wanted, and that's not really about 'fair' or 'unfair' but just about life requiring a certain amount of effort from all of us.

But you then say 'People are not excluding them because they talk about birth parents'.

But the precise point is, people are not talking about 'birth parents' here.

People are saying 'the mums' when they mean 'the mums other than the OP'.

It requires no manipulation of language whatsoever to say 'mum' or 'birth parent' - you've just done it yourself.

I'm at a loss as to why you think this is about changing words? Surely it is simply about not pretending you said 'birth parents' when you actually said 'mums'?

But you're pretending that the OP was clear that she is a woman in a same-sex relationship. Lots of posters haven't caught up with the post where OP explains that so they're still using 'mum' because they think the OP is the dad. They're using 'mum' to mean biological mother. It's disingenuous to say that problem comes with posters when OP deliberately didn't say she was a woman feeling excluded because she was not the birth mother. If that had been in the OP, then at least half of these posts wouldn't have been made.

Yes I agree @MrsMaizel, but my comment about society still be unequal was in reference to my observation that it's still women who do most of the childcare duties, even when their children are long last the baby years. It's completely understandable that women should seek out other women who have been through the same experience post birth, but there's no biological reason why mum's should do anymore childcare than men when their children are school age. Yes you do see more men at the school gates, and organising play dates and at birthday parties, but it's not 50/50. And as been said before the reasons why this is are very complex, the gender pay gap plays a part, gender stereotyping plays a part, and just entrenched societal "norms", which take a lot to unpick. But the inequality is still very much there.

I don't understand what difference it makes if mums do a lot of the kids party's and pick ups etc, it's whatever works in your own situation. Just because the dad doesn't do school picks or isn't on the class WhatsApp group does not mean they aren't great dad's who do 50/50. In my personal circumstances my husband is a teacher so that means he doesn't do the school pick up unless it's breakfast or afterschool club. I'm currently on mat leave but I usually do 1 pick up or drop off a day as I can work around it (grandparents do the other). I'm in the class WhatsApp group, my husband has 2 of the school apps he "looks after". I don't really understand what difference it makes to a couple who are 2 mums whether the dad's of other kids join in? You'll both be in the mum WhatsApp group and can both go to babygroups and fit in easily as mums. I'm lost why dads being there matter to you? They are joining in, just not where you can see!

I could understand this post if it was 2 men and a baby trying to fit in with mums but I'd have thought it'd be easier as 2 mums, you'd both fit in. I really don't think anyone cares about the who gave birth thing beyond those first baby groups, there's a gran in our class WhatsApp, she clearly didn't give birth to the child (she has parental responsibility, it's never been mentioned, why would it?). I think you might be overthinking things a little, I'd happily not join in with any of it anyway 🤣!

@ElizaDarcysDeeds - no, that particular poster does know the OP is a woman, though I do take your point a lot of people didn't and it wasn't the clearest OP ever! I really don't think it's homophobic people will assume the OP is a dad - I just think that it's telling that people on this thread who know she is a woman, are still using 'the mums' to mean 'the mums other than the OP. I know it's very casual and innocent - I just wanted to try to explain why it might be upsetting. Not a huge deal!

FWIW, it's really tricky posting about stuff like this, IME. If you flag up that you're a lesbian, it can mean everyone thinks you're concerned about homophobia so they'll all respond on that level, rather than answering the question. So I think the OP was probably just trying to be neutral?

But you're pretending that the OP was clear that she is a woman in a same-sex relationship.
Lots of posters haven't caught up with the post where OP explains that so they're still using 'mum' because they think the OP is the dad. They're using 'mum' to mean biological mother. It's disingenuous to say that problem comes with posters when OP deliberately didn't say she was a woman feeling excluded because she was not the birth mother. If that had been in the OP, then at least half of these posts wouldn't have been made.

Posters are answering something of a trick question.

FWIW, it's really tricky posting about stuff like this, IME. If you flag up that you're a lesbian, it can mean everyone thinks you're concerned about homophobia so they'll all respond on that level, rather than answering the question. So I think the OP was probably just trying to be neutral?

I think it was a dripfeed with multiple purposes.

Why should this justify exclusion of men? Surely women need men to understand more about their endurance? Including men more could help reduce sexism in all settings: predominantly male, predominantly female and mixed.

Men have had millions of years to observe and acknowledge what women go through, and get on with contributing their fair share and easing the burden women carry.

Are you saying all it would have taken to completely change everything was an invitation to a post-natal natter? Are you saying that the fifty years so far of including men more in pre-natal classes, childbirth, and paternity leave are not enough? They still don't get it?

@mathanxiety

FWIW, it's really tricky posting about stuff like this, IME. If you flag up that you're a lesbian, it can mean everyone thinks you're concerned about homophobia so they'll all respond on that level, rather than answering the question. So I think the OP was probably just trying to be neutral?

I think it was a dripfeed with multiple purposes.

Hmm, maybe.

It is really peculiar though. I have been posting on MN for over a decade and for a lot of that time I was married to a man, so I sort of have a sense of both sides of the issue. If you flag up that you're in a same-sex relationship you bias the questions in a different way, so there's no easy way to not drip feed.

I am starting to think it must be much much more diffficult for two dads, who must have adopted or used a surrogate to have their child, to fit in with an ordinary baby group. A lesbian couple is easier. Either could be mum, and both can be.