Is it going to be just mums and just dads forever now?

[ParentsandParents]

My wife has just had our first baby and well as splitting the load as much as possible I've been trying to join in with the community of new parents and be an active and equal participant. It's tough though. Partly because all the parenting classes, activities and meet ups are held during the week and I'm working at the moment, though I'll be doing three months of SPL later in the year. And partly because every new parents group, chat or meet up I join seems to either just be the women who've given birth and nobody else, or to quickly split into separate groups, meet ups and chats for 'mums' and 'dads' with the 'mums' often initiating this. Even when the point of meeting up or chatting is nothing to do with being a man or woman, and everything to do with being a new parent and / or meeting new people. It hasn't been like this so far in my life, I've always been in and seen mixed groups at work, in friendships and in activities. Is it unreasonable to have expected that new parents would want to spend time with other new parents, or that men and women could talk about our kids and be friends, or does something about new parenthood send everyone spiraling back to the 50's with the men in the pub talking about craft ale and what football team their kids will support and the women in the park talking about books and feeding? Will this change when our kid(s) are older or is this the way it's always going to be now we have a kid.

Ime this happens because in reality there are just very few dads at almost everything in terms of baby groups. There were none at any of the things I attended, from playgroup to music sessions, baby massage etc.

The first 3 months of chat were mostly about sharing stories of birth and cracked nipples and discharge coming out of various orifices. That was my experience of why the group naturally went to men and women.

Why don't you organise something you would want, and see if you get any takers?

As well as the above, YES this does seem to be a time in which many regress to gender stereotypes. The man goes out to work, and the woman is stuck at home. Chores which were previously shared, never seem to leave her list, even when both are back at work.

To be fair women getting together and talking about being a 'new parent' often involves alot of intimate details or things that women would feel more comfortable talking to other women about. Not necessarily men

In my experience women want support from women in those early days so that they can comfortably discuss THEIR issues as new parents, which are often vastly different to men’s, ie changes to their bodies, breastfeeding, contact napping, loss of identity due to being away from work etc.
If you want to organise something for a mixed group I don’t see why you can’t though.

Yes all the groups I'm in we talk a lot about the birth and other related issues. IMO just mums groups are needed for things like this, it's important to discuss. Try setting up a group with dads included too, as a separate group?

YANBU. It’s never made any difference to me whether the people I meet and hang out with at baby and toddler groups are mums or dads. I do think it tends to be female dominated because women are usually the ones on mat leave due to needing recovery time physically, but as a result dads end up finding it difficult to make parent friends and I know plenty feel ostracised and ignored at groups. Unfortunate it reinforces the notion that child rearing is a woman’s domain as by the time (usually) mum returns to work those social groups are quite set and difficult to change.

Go to groups when you can and talk to anyone and everyone :) I’m sure you’ll find other parents like me who enjoy meeting fellow parents regardless of gender.

Yes this does seem to happen unfortunately. My DH worked part-time after we had DC1 but he wasn't as keen to do this after DC2 as he didn't really enjoy it - all the baby/toddler groups mostly attended by women and he felt like an outsider. So it is a bit of a vicious circle I guess.

YANBU.

We want more men involved. Yet when they are, they are the odd one out… it is slowly changing.

The Whatsapp groups in primary are all mums. Clearly these mothers are not reminiscing about how they gave birth 5 or 10 years ago? It’s about homework and what day is PE and which present are they getting for the TA at the end of the year.

My DH took DD and DS to a few birthday parties recently and was always the only man, looked at with suspicion (at least initially). The fact that he wanted to wear a mask inside a softplay didn’t help him. He’s very friendly, chatty and non-threatening.

I have found quite a few dads at playgroups. I guess in the first year its not unusual to be mainly mums as they are on maternity leave. Most dads have to go back to work unless they have an employer who supports shared parental leave etc. School wise I find a lot of dads are involved, more so now as so many of them work from
home!

My DH manages to infiltrate all the "mums groups" he works part time and loves the social side of having kids. He's well accepted.
There us one other man I know who's a SAHD and he meets with the other mums for coffee, play group etc.

On one hand, I like to see dads at playgroups. My ds doesn't see enough men in our day-to-day. But on the other hand, as PPs have said, it's important women have other women to support them (if that's what they want) because giving birth, breastfeeding, the bleeding, and all the gory details are exclusively female experiences.

There's also still a lot of gender inequality in terms of parenting, and whilst the segregation you speak of isn't helpful, it's also a natural consequence.

Finally, although men and women can be friends, most people find that most of their friends in general are of the same sex. Finding parent friends tends to follow the same pattern.

I understand your frustration though. I think it would be good to have mixed-parent groups in addition to having women only support available. Problem is, many men aren't interested.

I found this. I'd rather have talked about pretty much anything in nct than changes to my body with the other mums.

I think at first there is a lot of talk about the birth and about breastfeeding etc which most women would normally prefer to speak to other women about. It gets better over time (though ime for the first six months you dont get to know anyone anyway as all everyone talks about is their baby).

I found swimming lessons a good mix of mums and dads although not loads of time for talking. I've found older kids activities have more dads as well

I think there are two different things being talked about here. Dads at playgroups where they are just rare and parent meet ups bbqs, drinks etc where mixed sex parent couples then divide off into Mums in lounge, Dads in garden etc. I found the second to be disconcerting as i was used to socialising in mixed groups: male, female, couples, singles and groups never split down sex lines. I do wonder if i had more single parent, same sex parents friends it would change 1950s dynamic. Its a definite thing and persists in school mum drinks etc.

Yabu. Who is "they" who organise it all? Create a unisex parenting group, if you wish there was one then create your own.

I used to help organise a social group as a volunteer. There are always those who set up and create groups, and the rest moan about it.

DIY.

I've only ever attended parent and toddler stay and play type groups. The majority of parents there were women although sometimes there was a dad or 2. It's more common that the mums attended as they're the ones on maternity leave or being the stay at home parent. There's a church hall near me that does a group specially for dad's one Saturday a month. Some people didn't like the idea as the usual group isn't mum's only, but it's because it's taken for granted that it's normally women who go and it's to encourage men to attend.

Yes, with the women I met at antenatal classes, we spoke a lot about recovery from birth, breastfeeding, etc. I wouldn't have spoken to a man about that. There's a shared experience aspect to it I think.

I also don't think relationships with the opposite sex at classes transfer very well/frequently to outside of them. I will happily speak to dads at our groups, just the same as the mums, but I wouldn't really message them on WhatsApp or invite them to my home for a coffee on their own or make an effort to befriend them outside a class setting. And I wouldn't have done that pre-baby either. The majority of my friends before I had a baby were women and they still are now. So I don't think it's overly unusual that women aren't really interested in being friends outside of an organised setting with someone of the opposite sex, regardless of whether he's a parent or not.

In terms of situations where both parents are there at gatherings and there's a 'splitting off' into mums and dads (where does the child go?!), I've been to a few occasions, mainly birthdays, and everyone has just stuck in the same place with the kids and stayed in the same general areas as their partners mainly (but also neither of us are particularly interested in meeting up with other parents as a couple so it's not something I have much experience).

I think it’s a bit of both.

With very new babies, women are likely to want to talk about the physical side - the birth itself, the recovery, the breastfeeding, the bleeding, etc. They may understandably not feel comfortable having those chats with men.

But it’s also the case that there just aren’t that many dads taking time off and doing things with babies, which is a real shame. My husband is now on SPL and I’m going back to work soon, and he hasn’t met a single other dad yet at the groups etc he has been to.

It’s especially hard at the moment due to Covid because there aren’t many antenatal classes and lots of the baby groups specify one parent only.

I don’t really have a solution! But I think it can be hard for dads. There aren’t the same routes to making friends that new mums usually have.

For the record @AntiSocialDistancer I have both organised and joined parenting groups / chats, they still always seem to split along gendered lines no matter the original intention or description. I posted this in frustration after a mum in a new parenting chat that I'm an admin for suggested starting a separate group for dads and about ten others have responded saying this would be great and can their lonely husbands join. This is despite all the meet ups the group has organised so far specifically being for everyone, with partners specifically welcome and some of the meet ups happening at weekends or at times when WFH dads / teacher dads and other mums on summer holidays could join.

Yes I get why some women would want to talk to other people who had gone through the very unique physical experience of having a baby and feeding one. Especially in the few months after birth. But the experience of parenting a young child isn't unique to women, or it shouldn't be. And I just find it a bit depressing that parents are splitting along these lines and that some of the splitting is being instigated by women. I feel it's only going to entrench a situation where in the future men who haven't parented or been included by other parents or developed a network, still wont parent because they don't know how, or feel excluded, or feel no social pressure or expectation to do so. I suppose I was just hoping we were a bit more advanced along the road to equality than we seem to be.

Sometimes women just want to spend time with other women. Esp if feeling vulnerable for any reason which is very common after having a baby. Women are less likely to open up with some bloke sitting there. There are hardly any spaces for just women any more so perhaps that’s why groups split by sex given the opportunity

I've been trying for almost five years to arrange a play date, but the few successes have been with friends from before children. Covid hasn't helped, working doesn't help, not sure central London helps either. So I have no helpful advice.

The sad bit is the attitude to men. It's very common to be patronised "can you cope?" , "super dad" changed a nappy etc. It's equally common to be resented by some women due to the "super dad" comments from others. Then you have people who don't think it is a man's place - "what if a women wants to breastfeed?". It's not easy to just be treated as another parent.

I think it happens naturally because each partner has different needs. As an example - the men (or one of them) may be concerned about how their wife is coping and couldn’t talk about this with them there but without they can gauge how other dads speak to see if there’s something to be concerned about. With women it may be more physical that they don’t want to speak about with men they don’t know. If you want socially mixed though see if your wife has made any connections and arrange something with a few couples.

You're entitled to feel how you feel. I'm glad you're actively organising the groups you want to attend. So many men seem to expect women to organise them for them.

And women should have their own groups too. Very important that they do.