Is it going to be just mums and just dads forever now?

[ParentsandParents]

My wife has just had our first baby and well as splitting the load as much as possible I've been trying to join in with the community of new parents and be an active and equal participant. It's tough though. Partly because all the parenting classes, activities and meet ups are held during the week and I'm working at the moment, though I'll be doing three months of SPL later in the year. And partly because every new parents group, chat or meet up I join seems to either just be the women who've given birth and nobody else, or to quickly split into separate groups, meet ups and chats for 'mums' and 'dads' with the 'mums' often initiating this. Even when the point of meeting up or chatting is nothing to do with being a man or woman, and everything to do with being a new parent and / or meeting new people. It hasn't been like this so far in my life, I've always been in and seen mixed groups at work, in friendships and in activities. Is it unreasonable to have expected that new parents would want to spend time with other new parents, or that men and women could talk about our kids and be friends, or does something about new parenthood send everyone spiraling back to the 50's with the men in the pub talking about craft ale and what football team their kids will support and the women in the park talking about books and feeding? Will this change when our kid(s) are older or is this the way it's always going to be now we have a kid.

I think it depends on how long after they've given birth. It's a weird and irrational time. I have always had and sought mixed friendships, but increasingly during pregnancy and intensly after having DS I just did not want to befriend men I didn't know. It was fine if they were there, didn't care, but I had absolutely no interest in talking to them or being their friend. In the early days I really struggled and was not in a position to put other people first. I would not have struck up a conversation with a man, certainly would not have exchanged phone numbers (although obviously would not have ignored them if they had talked to me). No idea if this is a common experience, but it might go some way towards explaining it.

The feeling has slowly decreased and I am no longer struggling and happily talk to anyone at the park, and would not seek to exclude men from groups. For the reasons you mention, I'd be in favour of mixed groups - good role models for my son, encourages dads, etc. But honestly I still have no interest in being friends with men. The thought doesn't set off the negative feelings it used to, I just lack the interest.

So in answer to your last question, I would actively seek being friends with you if we got on, since you are a woman. It's not about who gave birth.

I suppose I was just hoping we were a bit more advanced along the road to equality than we seem to be.

^ equality doesn't mean ignoring the very real sex based differences that go along with the experience of having given birth and wanting to be around others who have had that shared (often traumatic!) experience at a time when one feels most vulnerable. For women to be able to speak up and ask for women's only groups is not a regression. Men telling women that men shouldn't be excluded even if it's what women want is.

I think you feel like you don’t fit in either group and are understandably disappointed and frustrated, possibly even a bit scared.
However, I think you are not acknowledging the experiences of the other people and what support they might seek/need at this time.

Bookmark

Today 20:27 ParentsandParents

For the record @AntiSocialDistancer I have both organised and joined parenting groups / chats, they still always seem to split along gendered lines no matter the original intention or description. I posted this in frustration after a mum in a new parenting chat that I'm an admin for suggested starting a separate group for dads and about ten others have responded saying this would be great and can their lonely husbands join. This is despite all the meet ups the group has organised so far specifically being for everyone, with partners specifically welcome and some of the meet ups happening at weekends or at times when WFH dads / teacher dads and other mums on summer holidays could join.“

Sorry but doesn’t this give you a very strong hint that most new mums don’t want dads there too?

You need to respect that even if you don’t understand it.

Ah you're a woman! Then surely you should understand this even more! This is about people needing to be around people who have gone through a similar experience. Unfortunately if you haven't given birth, you aren't going to be able to relate to a lot of it. That's not to say you can't understand and contribute to conversations about parenting, but there are unique aspects of the journey you are naturally excluded from. I'm sure once the babies get older it'll even out as people naturally move to parenting conversations and then other topics, not just childbirth and how their partner who didn't give birth are doing.

I generally find men a bit boring and overbearing in group conversations so I prefer to meet up just with women, whatever the topic.

There's lots of research about how mixed groups become dominated by men so I can see why the women would initiate splitting into a separate group.

@SarahAndQuack

I did a load of reading about same-sex parents after we had DD, and relatively few lesbians seem to feel experiences of parenthood are driven primarily by whether or not you're the birthing parent. The early days, yes. Later on, no

Yes I was really thinking of parenting in the first year.

Babies are a world away for me now and as my DC have grown I’ve been much more open to parent friendships of either sex.

However my overarching recollection of new fathers was how fucking dull they all were. And sanctimonious. Nothing worse than a snug dad who dies precisely 5 hours of “babysitting” a week playing competitive parent with you or patronising you whilst your baby screams because he “never [had] that issue with Jago, have you tried a genuine organic cotton swaddle?!”

@OppsUpsSide

I think you feel like you don’t fit in either group and are understandably disappointed and frustrated, possibly even a bit scared. However, I think you are not acknowledging the experiences of the other people and what support they might seek/need at this time.

Not really no. I think it's really important that groups and spaces for women who have given birth exist. I founded my university's feminism society and volunteer for a women's crisis line alongside my day job. I never said they shouldn't exist, or that men (or other mothers) should be in them. I was just hoping for some mixed groups as well. Perhaps the field of parenting will be a bit wider when the baby is a bit older. For the record my wife feels the same way, she's always had a mix of male and female friends and colleagues and is hoping more dads will be around and involved with play dates and pick ups and classes in the future - both to chat to and for our son to see and learn from.

@ParentsandParents

Anyway, this has been interesting. I'm off to do the next feed (pumped) so my wife can get a bit more sleep. Hope all the dads and other mums out there are doing the same. Sleep tight

Ironically, this sounds like the most male-like competitive parenting. Deserves a medal! 😂

But on a more serious note, I agree with a previous poster that the problem may be that you don't feel you belong to either group. Do you have the chance to connect with parents in a similar situation to yours?

@ParentsandParents that has a ring of ‘no I have studied this’ rather than actually looking at and listening to the people around you and considering their experiences separately from your own. I imagine having a baby with another woman is different to having a baby with a man or as a man with a female, it doesn’t come across that you have really given this much consideration beyond your academic studies and own wants and needs.
Give it time, after a few years/babies I can hardly remember the births, it’s all about the parenting.

Yanbu. I am a better version of myself when I'm with DH and it felt weird being in all female groups. But then, I found mother and baby groups awful anyway, I tried so hard and never made a single friend.

[quote OppsUpsSide]@ParentsandParents that has a ring of ‘no I have studied this’ rather than actually looking at and listening to the people around you and considering their experiences separately from your own. I imagine having a baby with another woman is different to having a baby with a man or as a man with a female, it doesn’t come across that you have really given this much consideration beyond your academic studies and own wants and needs.
Give it time, after a few years/babies I can hardly remember the births, it’s all about the parenting.[/quote]
Well, there's no real point getting into a - who has listened to the most experiences - discussion. I'm sure there are some general differences between the experience of having a baby with a woman and having a baby with a man, but I also expect there are massive differences of experience and needs within those groups, and that I am not that much better equipped to understand the experiences of another lesbian couple, than you are to understand the experiences of another whatever-you-are. From listening to just the people who have responded on here though, there seems to be a whole range of experiences and needs being expressed. Several women have said they didn't want to be around men at all as a new mother, or find men generally overbearing. Several have said they found the experience of being just around women strange or like school or a bit alienating, and were relieved when things evened out later on, or wanted more men around as company or role models, or to take some of the weight of parenting, or whatever - great. Several wanted a mix of both. To me, that suggests that it would be good to have various kinds of groups and spaces and ways to be parents, all co-existing alongside each other. Which is what I was initially asking about.

Dads are so important. But being a new mum, is something only another new mum understands. Women really need each other in this stage of life. It's not about excluding men, it's about connecting with those with a shared experience, and men will never know what it is to become a mother.
I'm sure it would be nice to have a Quick chat with a dad at a group, but ultimately, most women go to groups, so their babies can play, snd to chat with other mums.

A dad focused group is a brilliant idea. Fatherhood comes with its own issues too. If there's nothing like this in your area, you could always put the feelers out and see if there's any interest.

YABU, the last thing I wanted in the months following childbirth was to listen to men bleating on about their experiences and what they wanted. Seems like the women in your group feel the same @ParentsandParents.

Now that I know you’re a woman, I think you’re just as utterly clueless as I was before giving birth. The women, who gave birth want to be around the other women, who just shared the same experience. You didn’t share that experience and it is rude and presumptuous to think you can be part of that group based on your biological sex. Perhaps you will if you and your dw decide to have another child. But right now, you don’t and rightly so they don’t want to include you.

If I were one of the other women in the group, I would be perplexed that you don’t get this. Being a woman, your boundaries will have frequently have been disregarded. You are taking this very personally and as pointed out, your post about feeding comes across as performative. Yes, it’s nice you’re feeding your baby so your dw can sleep. But I note you’re feeding your baby with pumped milk. That takes some effort and your dw is an absolute saint to be pumping with a newborn so that you can experience feeding.

You have been pretty forceful with your views throughout this exchange and your first post was very much talking about men and women. It’s natural for the women on this thread, who’ve given birth to presume you’re male both based on the way you discussed men and women and because you sound pretty entitled, much like men often do.

As I and others have said, you should wait a while until the babies are weaned. I suggested until the spring, which will mean your baby will be around 9 months old. This is the time, when you will see a shift, especially with a change of weather. The women will be stronger. Their hormones will not yet be balanced as that takes around 18 months. But they will be more likely to be receptive to meet ups as couples.

I totally disagree with @Mummyoflittledragon. Our NCT group had two lesbian couples, so I haven’t got masses of experience, but the birthing mums of the group included the non birthing mums as one of us, perhaps partly because there was shared leave in both cases so we saw plenty of the non birthing mums. We were as close to them as we were to the birthing mums and loved spending time with them as part of our group.

It didn’t quite hit off with dads in the same way and indeed it was definitely dads night in the pub and mums night out or at baby group for a while, and indeed we still do those things. But we now do loads and loads as mixed groups of families, dinners, days out, camping weekends etc. It all worked out in the end, it just takes time to get there as everyone gets settled in their new roles.

Absolutely nothing is forever in parenting!!

You’ll find what you are looking for, don’t rush it and it will all fall into place eventually.

I definitely noticed a shift as the babies grew. First 6 months my week days were very female. By the time I was ready to go back to work, there were dad’s in the baby classes. There was a lovely baby massage class for dads on Saturdays which my husband did with my first. He felt much more comfortable with that sort of class than he would have done being the only man in a newborn class. I remember with the early baby classes so much was really about support for the mums. They might be called baby classes but really they are a support network for woman dealing with the after effects of birth and a support network for avoiding isolation. If you look at it that way then it is no surprise they are split.

I think you will find that parenting does become much less gendered as your child gets older. There’s plenty of dads doing school drop of/pick up/ going to birthday parties etc, in my experience it’s approaching 50%. But it is still dominated by women, because women are still the partner who will do the bulk of childcare and domestic duties, and they’re more likely to stop work or go part time. That’s nothing to do with women gravitating towards women, and everything to do with the fact we’re maybe not as far along the road to gender equality as some people seem to think we are. Maybe you’re just realising that now OP, but the patriarchy is still strong.

I agree with you OP. But I get bored talking about nipples and breastfeeding and would prefer a mixed crowd, or at least the option of one. My last ante natal group was also a bit crap for me as babies were all anyone talked about and no one was planning on returning to work. I wanted to talk about the challenges of surviving on no sleep, being taken seriously at work as a parent and, y'know, maybe current events and hobbies etc. Would love some sort of parents club where too much poo talk is banned and it's just normal adults with lots of interests getting together in a kid/baby friendly setting. I have the chat I'd like with my child free friends but feel like I need to bend backwards to arrange childcare so I'm not poor company. I'm so jealous of people who have couple friends who go camping together with their kids and have a few drinks every evening when the kids are in bed.

@SpindleWhorl

Why don't you organise something you would want, and see if you get any takers?

That was my thought too. Or are you expecting the 'mums' to sort out things for the 'dads' to do?

@Mummyoflittledragon

Now that I know you’re a woman, I think you’re just as utterly clueless as I was before giving birth. The women, who gave birth want to be around the other women, who just shared the same experience. You didn’t share that experience and it is rude and presumptuous to think you can be part of that group based on your biological sex. Perhaps you will if you and your dw decide to have another child. But right now, you don’t and rightly so they don’t want to include you.

If I were one of the other women in the group, I would be perplexed that you don’t get this. Being a woman, your boundaries will have frequently have been disregarded. You are taking this very personally and as pointed out, your post about feeding comes across as performative. Yes, it’s nice you’re feeding your baby so your dw can sleep. But I note you’re feeding your baby with pumped milk. That takes some effort and your dw is an absolute saint to be pumping with a newborn so that you can experience feeding.

You have been pretty forceful with your views throughout this exchange and your first post was very much talking about men and women. It’s natural for the women on this thread, who’ve given birth to presume you’re male both based on the way you discussed men and women and because you sound pretty entitled, much like men often do.

As I and others have said, you should wait a while until the babies are weaned. I suggested until the spring, which will mean your baby will be around 9 months old. This is the time, when you will see a shift, especially with a change of weather. The women will be stronger. Their hormones will not yet be balanced as that takes around 18 months. But they will be more likely to be receptive to meet ups as couples.

Yes I've just read all OPs posts and actually I agree with all this

I met lots of friends at the school gate and at parties we have always ended up with women in one group and men in another even 15 years later.

But then I prefer female company so it suits me. I've never chosen to spend much social time with men. Working with a lot of men really put me off!

If you and your DW tend to socialise in mixed groups I'm sure that will come back after the baby years.

@TooBigForMyBoots

YABU, the last thing I wanted in the months following childbirth was to listen to men bleating on about their experiences and what they wanted. Seems like the women in your group feel the same *@ParentsandParents*.

Totally agree. Think this just goes to show that most people are naturally drawn to their own sex for friendships. And there’s nothing Erin with that. This enforced mixed sex thing is just too try hard.

@HTKB

I totally disagree with *@Mummyoflittledragon*. Our NCT group had two lesbian couples, so I haven’t got masses of experience, but the birthing mums of the group included the non birthing mums as one of us, perhaps partly because there was shared leave in both cases so we saw plenty of the non birthing mums. We were as close to them as we were to the birthing mums and loved spending time with them as part of our group.

It didn’t quite hit off with dads in the same way and indeed it was definitely dads night in the pub and mums night out or at baby group for a while, and indeed we still do those things. But we now do loads and loads as mixed groups of families, dinners, days out, camping weekends etc. It all worked out in the end, it just takes time to get there as everyone gets settled in their new roles.

Absolutely nothing is forever in parenting!!

You’ll find what you are looking for, don’t rush it and it will all fall into place eventually.

I’m sure op will be welcomed by the group when she does SPL. Are you saying the non birthing female partners were at all the meet ups during the 4th trimester? Because this is what op is talking about right now.

I think things change a bit as babies grow up - parents get more time to themselves to focus on friends rather than just focusing on the baby, so don't worry too much!

Is there a parenting group you could join for same-sex couples? You may find people there with experiences that are closer to yours. And congrats on your baby!