Surrogacy makes me very uncomfortable

[HermioneKipper]

I was listening to Giovanna Fletcher’s podcast with H from Steps and hearing them talk about him using a surrogate for his twins made me feel very uncomfortable.

It’s essentially renting a woman’s body to buy a baby.

I understand the woman must’ve consented but she was paid and it doesn’t take into account the risk she was putting her body through. Pregnancy and childbirth is a huge strain on a woman’s body and she risks serious injury giving birth that she’ll have for life.

Even more so as she had twins which is even more dangerous.

And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them.

It feels akin to the black market of buying and selling organs.

I know I have children so perhaps don’t have the right to comment but it doesn’t sit right with me.

@bakingdemon

Another one here with serious misgivings. The sense of entitlement some high profile people who've had children via surrogate have sits very very uneasily with me. It comes across as "of course we can choose to have a child when we want because we will just buy it". I'm thinking of people like Tom Daley and Julia Peyton Jones.

This was from an interview with Daley and made me spit feathers:
Daley says that gay couples are uniquely suited to being parents because they are prepared to endure the daunting surrogacy process. “One of you isn’t going to fall pregnant after a glass of wine on the sofa, that’s for sure,” he says. “You have to want a baby more than anything in the world.
“The surrogate mum doesn’t supply the egg, so she has no biological connection with the infant. I think that helps,” Daley says.

Good God

The surrogate mum doesn’t supply the egg, so she has no biological connection with the infant

No, just every single cell nurtured with her body, the sound of her heartbeat the backdrop to the entity of its consciousness, the sound of her voice your connection to the world outside, not to mention the role of epigenetics...no, no biological connection at all...just a fucking oven.

Oh but he's such a lovely man....he knits AND crochets

“The surrogate mum doesn’t supply the egg, so she has no biological connection with the infant. I think that helps,” Daley says.

Bloke needs a biology lesson.

Whats an umbilical cord for?

Also this neglects to highlight how having a foreign egg implanted into you raises the biological risk to both mother and baby.

Of course because this isn't his risk this isn't important.

He wants an increased risk to mother and baby so that the mother has less come back in the future in saying she was the mothet in any way shape or form.

Lets spell this out and be honest about it and who he passes the risk onto and how his promotion of surrogacy which neflects this rather important detail is misleading and gross.

Did Tom Daley really say that? Just shows that the women are just considered as 'rent a womb' and there is money to be made in surrogacy in the UK right now it's just couched as 'expenses' rather than a fee. It's vile.

It really got my goat when everyone was gloating over lovely Tom and his crochet at the olympics with his designer baby back at home, of course he wouldn't have the issues that the breastfeeding mothers had with the controversy over needing to leave babies at home.

should have said fawning not gloating!

People who think that a surrogate has no biological connection with their baby have chosen to ignore the science.
Because it makes it easier for them.

But any adult able to put a child's needs first wouldn't have started down surrogacy in the first place.

@TheGirlCat
You really don't know me and what my ability will be like to be a parent so can't judge, I have two furbabies BTW and girl just about to have pups.
But then again you have people having kids that should not be parents, over and over again. So you think it's stops them from having kids.
And to answer your question I would make a dame good mother not that it's any off your business tbh just because I can't seem to carry does not mean I won't make or should not be a mother.

@FourTeaFallOut

The surrogate mum doesn’t supply the egg, so she has no biological connection with the infant

No, just every single cell nurtured with her body, the sound of her heartbeat the backdrop to the entity of its consciousness, the sound of her voice your connection to the world outside, not to mention the role of epigenetics...no, no biological connection at all...just a fucking oven.

I understand that mitochondrial DNA is found up to 10 years in a child. It is in minuscule amounts but this argument about it not being the mother's DNA, the baby is being handed back to the genetic parents, and that genetic connections don't matter completely ignores that women who give birth to babies made from donated eggs are considered the mother (they are, they have given birth, is the woman who donated her eggs the mother? No. She remains the genetic mother but there is inconsistency here), the mother growing the baby switches on/off various genetics during pregnancy, and genealogical bewilderment is a real thing, it has been evident for decades. Based on this being a real thing adopted and donor conceived children have built their own networks to find support and connect with others who have similar experiences. If it didn't matter why would these networks exist? There are tv programmes about it, documentaries, studies, a wealth of literary material. Same as attachment theory. It's all just bollocks is it?

It never ceases to amaze me the level of spin and delusion around your own personal narrative you tell yourself to justify moral and ethical wrongs done to others to get what you want....and try to get others to support you or agree with you.

And when they don't agree or pander to the idea that the buying and selling of newborns is all fine and dandy the predictable response is to frame their views as patronising women, suggesting that concerns around exploitation are rooted in not wishing women to have body autonomy and choice.

Not being able to carry a child doesn't mean you wouldn't be a good mother @Babyghirl.

I also understand wanting a baby that is yours genetically, getting to experience all the first with them.
I had all those emotions, it is why I had ivf.

I also get that the soft sell that surrogacy is just the next natural step is desperately appealing when all you want is your own baby.

But it is exploitative and child trafficking. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should.

After having my baby, I think this kind of surrogacy is SO wrong. My baby needed me; he didn't know his father from Adam and I was the only one he wanted and needed to feel safe. The thought of babies being ripped from their mothers makes me cry:

It never ceases to amaze me the level of spin and delusion around your own personal narrative you tell yourself to justify moral and ethical wrongs done to others to get what you want....and try to get others to support you or agree with you

And to be fair, this isn't unique to those who are infertile in looking to leverage their pain to justify the means - humans do it a lot.

If my children came to harm because of -let's say a drink driver- I'd be the first one trying to justify why forming a posse and meating out vigilante justice was perfectly reasonable. This is why we don't let people who are emotionally consumed by an issue hold the reins to the legislature and administration around it.

This is why we don't let people who are emotionally consumed by an issue hold the reins to the legislature and administration around it.

Exactly (and yes humans do it all the time). I think this is why concerns originated around the public consultation, and who is behind it.

The illegitimacy of the ‘Rumplestiltskin’ Surrogacy consultation http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3651968-The-illegitimacy-of-the-Rumplestiltskin-Surrogacy-consultation

[quote Babyghirl]@TheGirlCat
You really don't know me and what my ability will be like to be a parent so can't judge, I have two furbabies BTW and girl just about to have pups.
But then again you have people having kids that should not be parents, over and over again. So you think it's stops them from having kids.
And to answer your question I would make a dame good mother not that it's any off your business tbh just because I can't seem to carry does not mean I won't make or should not be a mother.[/quote]
I don't doubt your parenting abilities,that's not what's is question.

@spicedappledonuts
I'm now on the waiting list for ivf but also under a gynecologist who has ordered an mri because I had a scan and a heart shape uterus was seen so he want to c how bad.
So has asked me if my ivf letter comes through to put in on hold to I get the mri.
It's just hurtful when ladies blast other ladies with infertility instead of being understanding and try to see where they are coming from and try at least walk in there shoes.

It's just hurtful when ladies blast other ladies with infertility instead of being understanding and try to see where they are coming from and try at least walk in there shoes

Again, there are many people on this thread who DO walk in your shoes but still think surrogacy is appalling and should be banned.

No, I don't owe you a bleeding heart. Life is shit for people for all sorts of reasons. That doesn't mean we should rude roughshod over the ethics of a situation.

Ride

[quote Babyghirl]@spicedappledonuts
I'm now on the waiting list for ivf but also under a gynecologist who has ordered an mri because I had a scan and a heart shape uterus was seen so he want to c how bad.
So has asked me if my ivf letter comes through to put in on hold to I get the mri.
It's just hurtful when ladies blast other ladies with infertility instead of being understanding and try to see where they are coming from and try at least walk in there shoes.[/quote]
You're going around in circles. We do see where you are coming from, but nothing you have said will ever justify using surrogacy. Full stop.

[quote Babyghirl]@TheGirlCat
You really don't know me and what my ability will be like to be a parent so can't judge, I have two furbabies BTW and girl just about to have pups.
But then again you have people having kids that should not be parents, over and over again. So you think it's stops them from having kids.
And to answer your question I would make a dame good mother not that it's any off your business tbh just because I can't seem to carry does not mean I won't make or should not be a mother.[/quote]
Yes because furbabies and a dog about to have puppies is exactly the same thing as having a child 🥴

And you don’t take puppies away from their mother immediately at birth either do you?

Yes there are plenty of people having children that probably shouldn’t be. That just shows life is bloody unfair.

It doesn’t mean you should trample all over the rights of another woman and potential baby just to get whatever you want. Sometimes in life you can’t have what you want all the time. Learn to deal with it like an adult

[quote Babyghirl]@spicedappledonuts
I'm now on the waiting list for ivf but also under a gynecologist who has ordered an mri because I had a scan and a heart shape uterus was seen so he want to c how bad.
So has asked me if my ivf letter comes through to put in on hold to I get the mri.
It's just hurtful when ladies blast other ladies with infertility instead of being understanding and try to see where they are coming from and try at least walk in there shoes.[/quote]
No one is blasting anyone with infertility. It must be awful and it’s so very unfair.

But that doesn’t make surrogacy ok because your life is hard.

@Babyghirl there are many on here who've walked the infertility road.
I can certainly see how women are exploited through surrogacy, although I'm not against it, I think the surrogates need better protection. The only way I can see that happening is to ban international surrogacy. International surrogacy will always have the contracts written in favour of the parents.

Thinking of the child.
Its hard enough for adopted kids to meet their bio parents, I know someone who went to meet their bio dad to get told actually I'm not your bio dad, I'm on you birth cert because I didn't want people to know your mother had an affair and I hated the guy. So that guy has his adopted dad, birth cert dad, and a bio dad.

Imagine how blown your mind would be to be told that not only have you a surrogate who gave birth to you, your bio mother is neither the woman you call mum or the woman who carried you.

[quote Babyghirl]@spicedappledonuts
I'm now on the waiting list for ivf but also under a gynecologist who has ordered an mri because I had a scan and a heart shape uterus was seen so he want to c how bad.
So has asked me if my ivf letter comes through to put in on hold to I get the mri.
It's just hurtful when ladies blast other ladies with infertility instead of being understanding and try to see where they are coming from and try at least walk in there shoes.[/quote]
For the 100th time. This isnt about your feelings nor how awful infertility is.

Its about how you don't solve infertility by trafficking humans and using women as incubators because its exploitive.

Infertile women in many parts of the world dont have this sense of entitlement. Its equally shit for them. But they don't have the option because they are poor.

Equally many infertile women wouldnt dream of using their infertility to exploit other women because they think its a violation of rights and doesn't put children first.

You are making a strawman argument about how you are being picked on and how unfair your life is because you are infertile.

Its not about you.

@Babyghirl I have a few friends and family who are/have been struggling with infertility - through discussion I know that none of them would consider surrogacy because it is ethically wrong.

It's not about "tearing ladies down" it's about realising that taking advantage of others isn't the way to fix things. Having a biological child isn't a human right - being protected from exploitation and harm is.

I'm truly sorry that your in a shit position but there's no changing that.