Surrogacy makes me very uncomfortable

[HermioneKipper]

I was listening to Giovanna Fletcher’s podcast with H from Steps and hearing them talk about him using a surrogate for his twins made me feel very uncomfortable.

It’s essentially renting a woman’s body to buy a baby.

I understand the woman must’ve consented but she was paid and it doesn’t take into account the risk she was putting her body through. Pregnancy and childbirth is a huge strain on a woman’s body and she risks serious injury giving birth that she’ll have for life.

Even more so as she had twins which is even more dangerous.

And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them.

It feels akin to the black market of buying and selling organs.

I know I have children so perhaps don’t have the right to comment but it doesn’t sit right with me.

@fluffyatemycake

Is it just same sex couples you have an issue with or surrogacy as a whole? I have never had fertility issues but there are plenty of people out there who do and surrogacy gives you the option to biological children when you can't carry your own. I commend anyone who wants to carry children for other couples. A lot of people do it for people they know personally like family members or friends. Don't presume everyone who does it is desperate and does it for the money. You can't charge for it here.

Speaking for myself, I am against surrogacy in all its forms, including 'altruistic'.

Surrogacy is an ethical minefield. So many things can go very badly wrong for the mother, her baby, her other children and so on. On the other hand, the worst that can happen if surrogacy is not allowed is that someone doesn't get to have their 'own' biological child. That's sad, but having your 'own' child is a privilege, not a right.

I don't see how surrogacy can pass any ethical test. I believe future generations will be shocked that it was ever allowed to happen.

Certainly in the UK there is no exploitation and in fact it is the intended parents who have less rights through our outdated system. That's why celebrities go to the US

Ah the US. That country well known for its progressive views of women and women's birth rights.

Thats the same American were birth control isnt covered by medical insurance in many cases. Neither is birth. And of course if you don't have insurance you are screwed so just give birth anywhere and hope you don't die. Remembering at this point how much worse the stats for non white women giving birth in the US are. And thats without even mentioning access to abortion. The same American with its oh so amazingly crap maternity leave allowances.

That progressive America where giving birth is deemed an inconvenience or should be forced against a woman's will.

That progressive America.

Yeah I'll buy into that claptrap alright.

I was pro surrogacy - thought it was a beautiful thing - until I gave birth to my first child.

The birth went very wrong and I was very ill afterwards. I was lying in the hospital bed, linked up to machines and drifting in and out of consciousness when Dh realised that Dd was struggling. She was making little moans and appeared to be struggling to breathe. The midwife immediately got Dh to put her on my chest. And Dd lay there listening to my heartbeat and her breathing relaxed.

It seems that even semi conscious I was the only person that could help Dd at 2 hours old. She knew me you see. She knew my heartbeat. She knew my voice.

To take that away from a child - no matter how much you want to love and care for them - seems a very cruel thing indeed.

I don't see how surrogacy can pass any ethical test. I believe future generations will be shocked that it was ever allowed to happen.

We will have the Irish Adoption Scandal updated for a new generation in different countries out of surrogacy.

I do wish surrogate supporters would stop hiding behind the the 'your so homophobic' trojan horse.

No i dont have a problem with gay couples having families. I have a problem with surrogacy.

I hate surrogacy - it's exploitative and, unless the very rare case of sisters helping sisters or mom helping daughter, it can be nothing but an awful thing to expect someone to do for you. I harshly judge anyone who'd hire a surrogate, especially when the surrogate clearly is doing it because she needs the money. Nobody has a right to a child.

It seems that even semi conscious I was the only person that could help Dd at 2 hours old. She knew me you see. She knew my heartbeat. She knew my voice

Oh, this is beautiful, and so, so true. My newborns knew my voice, and the little one the voice of her big sister.

[quote WoolyMammoth55]Hi all, I realise that this is one of those arguments that no can win :) No one's mind is changed by a MN thread, after all!

But I've got genuine knowledge on this so I'll weigh in anyway.

A decade ago I worked for a very highly-regarded ethical trade consultancy in the UK. We were asked by clients to to a fully data-driven, statistics-led analysis of human surrogacy and the conclusion was: only ever ethically acceptable when surrogate is an unpaid friend or family member who 'donates' their services.

It was honestly very clear cut when you looked at the data. Lots of PTSD and suicide even with educated, western, paid surrogates in the USA.

Absolute carnage in Asian countries where the mother's SURVIVAL rates were

I agree with you for the most part, but I think that it might be a case of each to their own on this one. Live and let live. You can disagree with things without it being controversial, we all have our own opinions.

I understand where you are coming from. As a mother, knowing the bond you have during pregnancy I can't actually imagine carrying a child and then giving them up.

But it’s a controversial subject

Such an emotive subject will raise strong opinions

The bond between mother and baby is so so powerful, that our boobs leak even before they cry (i had the sensation months after I stopped bf), that I felt twinges of pain unlike any other when ds had colic, that I needed to burp when he was windy, that my heartbeat soothed him, that I would wake up just before he did when he was little so I could comfort him

This is all biological

@Delphinium20 posts like yours are just so unbearably smug. “Nobody has the right to a child” followed by mention of your multiple newborns. You really have no idea of the pain of infertility and childlessness do you.

@Nonamenolabel
Do you think you'd feel differently if you were a surrogate baby who was genetically linked to your parents?
How old were you when you were placed with your parents?

Used to think it was fine. Now I feel it's unethical to borrow someone else's eggs or body for procreation.

We seem to be relaxed about the ethics of this and justify it because the infertile couple really really wanted a baby, as if their desire somehow erases the ethics of it.

It's horribly sad when infertile couples struggle with infertility but their desire for a child doesn't make surrogacy right. I feel similar about egg and sperm donation too.

[quote Guardian12]@Delphinium20 posts like yours are just so unbearably smug. “Nobody has the right to a child” followed by mention of your multiple newborns. You really have no idea of the pain of infertility and childlessness do you.[/quote]
Without meaning to be harsh some might say that likewise those saying surrogacy is not morally wrong because it’s their only route to motherhood have zero idea of what women who’ve given birth are sharing.

Describing biological phenomena associated with the immediate post birth period is not smug. It’s fact.

@Talkwhilstyouwalk

I agree with you for the most part, but I think that it might be a case of each to their own on this one. Live and let live. You can disagree with things without it being controversial, we all have our own opinions.

Erm no.

Because its not live and let live.

Its exploit others and ignore it or cover it up.

Would you say the same about other forms of human trafficking? I doubt it.

Of course we should damn well make a point about human exploitation and trafficking and say no its not ok in order to stop it.

Not just turn a blind eye and say 'oh ok then'.

[quote Guardian12]@Delphinium20 posts like yours are just so unbearably smug. “Nobody has the right to a child” followed by mention of your multiple newborns. You really have no idea of the pain of infertility and childlessness do you.[/quote]
Someone childless and who hasn't given birth can't know and will never know just what it is that they are asking a woman to do and the emotional and physical toll of doing so.

Precisely because they never give birth.

Only women who give birth are able to talk about the impact on their bodies and minds.

Thats not being insensitive. Thats saying their reality.

There is nothing more misogynist than saying women must not speak about the reality of child birth because it offends them.

Its just a variation on Bewilderness's rules:

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
5th rule of misogyny: WATM! [What about the Men] Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.
11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.
12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.

This matters.

No infertile woman can give up her baby for the satisfaction of another strangely enough, and yet there is this expectation that another woman should no matter what the cost because 'infertility'.

Its an abhorrent selfish and inward looking way of the world where someone doesn't want to hear the reality of what they are asking for.

You really have no idea of the pain of infertility and childlessness do you.

Do you have any idea of what it is to go through pregnancy, birth and then giving up a baby?

@Guardian12
Plenty of mothers do understand the pain of infertility, going years through invasive, risky and devastating procedures, as well as miscarriages and stillbirths. Just because some are lucky to eventually get pregnant and give birth, does not mean mothers have no idea the pain of infertility. You can call me smug all day long, but I will still work to protect women and their babies from the risks of surrogacy.

Plenty of people who have not given birth find surrogacy abhorrent and an awful thing to ask a woman to do.

Surrogacy is now mostly exploitation of poor BAME women in the developing world like India now, so most people don’t care.

[quote WoolyMammoth55]Hi all, I realise that this is one of those arguments that no can win :) No one's mind is changed by a MN thread, after all!

But I've got genuine knowledge on this so I'll weigh in anyway.

A decade ago I worked for a very highly-regarded ethical trade consultancy in the UK. We were asked by clients to to a fully data-driven, statistics-led analysis of human surrogacy and the conclusion was: only ever ethically acceptable when surrogate is an unpaid friend or family member who 'donates' their services.

It was honestly very clear cut when you looked at the data. Lots of PTSD and suicide even with educated, western, paid surrogates in the USA.

Absolute carnage in Asian countries where the mother's SURVIVAL rates were

[quote Babyghirl]@MayorGoodwaysChicken
I know people who have adopted kids that where taking of there birth mothers and guess what they are a star pupils doing really well and heading towards a great career.
And they will tell you they could not be happier so as long as a child is loved a child well thrive but as I said my egg my baby only thing is someone else will carry for me.
Everyone has an opinion and that's mine and I won't change my mind on it.[/quote]
No. The other woman will not just be 'carrying' it as if it's a bag. She will be making it. Every scrap of flesh in that baby will be made from the other woman's body. The baby will only know her as its mother. The baby will not know you are it's mother. It will have to learn that over time as it grieves the loss of the mother it knew in the womb.
I can see nobody can deter you from doing this so if nothing else please open your eyes to the impact on the baby of this plan.

@Comedycook

I will say I no longer express my anti surrogacy views in real life after a conversation with friends went like this...

Me...I'm against all surrogacy
Friend...what about when gay men use a surrogate?
Me...well I'm against all surrogacy
Friend...even gay men who use it
Me...well I'm against all surrogacy... the person's sexuality is irrelevant.
Friend...so you're against gay men using surrogates?
Me..I'm against all surrogacy

I was accused of being homophobic by a woman I know when I criticised surrogacy. Madness. I have zero concerns about gay people parenting, but buying babies is never ok.

@fluffyatemycake

Is it just same sex couples you have an issue with or surrogacy as a whole? I have never had fertility issues but there are plenty of people out there who do and surrogacy gives you the option to biological children when you can't carry your own. I commend anyone who wants to carry children for other couples. A lot of people do it for people they know personally like family members or friends. Don't presume everyone who does it is desperate and does it for the money. You can't charge for it here.

Surrogacy as a whole, obviously The fact that you ask that question means either you've not read or comprehended any people's posts in this very long thread or you're being deliberately goady. Which is it?

I don't think the child is put at the centre of surrogacy, that's where I have a problem. I don't think anyone has a need for a child that is great enough to justify creating this kind of complicated start in life. There, I said it. I know that statement will be hard to swallow for people who can't have kids, but it's what I believe. If adoption is not an option, then why is surrogacy?

[quote lynntheyresexpeople]@HermioneKipper who are YOU to create a thread for your own enjoyment, when you are more than aware it will hurt so many people.

You still managed what so many cannot. Be grateful for that, and stop making goady threads for absolutely no reason. I hope purposely upsetting people helps you sleep at night.[/quote]
@lynntheyresexpeople Who are you to tell people what they can and can't write about? Who do you think you are? Surrogacy is a serious feminist issue and a serious human rights violation. It NEEDS to be discussed, and if that makes you feel guilty and uncomfortable, maybe you should examine your own conscience as to why you want to silence discussion on such a serious issue.