Surrogacy makes me very uncomfortable

[HermioneKipper]

I was listening to Giovanna Fletcher’s podcast with H from Steps and hearing them talk about him using a surrogate for his twins made me feel very uncomfortable.

It’s essentially renting a woman’s body to buy a baby.

I understand the woman must’ve consented but she was paid and it doesn’t take into account the risk she was putting her body through. Pregnancy and childbirth is a huge strain on a woman’s body and she risks serious injury giving birth that she’ll have for life.

Even more so as she had twins which is even more dangerous.

And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them.

It feels akin to the black market of buying and selling organs.

I know I have children so perhaps don’t have the right to comment but it doesn’t sit right with me.

@theKeatingfive
Well you see it from my point of view swings both ways.

When my SIL was diagnosed with MS, I offered to be a surrogate for her but she decided against it, worrying she'd be unable to care for the child properly. I see nothing wrong with surrogacy under the right circumstances.

I have ‘friends’ that went through the whole surrogacy debacle. It did not go well. They chose to go to Asia because it was cheaper and was legal ( at the time) although it’s not now I believe. The surrogate turned out to be very poor and demanded more money from them, she ended up carrying twins, one of which died in childbirth. There were massive complications as you can imagine. They were close to the surrogate initially but things went wrong very quickly, even before the baby died. It was a complete shit show and so badly managed by the surrogacy agency who were basically just pumping out these women. Most of whom were making these type of choices only because they were truly desperate and couldn’t think of another way out of their circumstances. Everyone involved was devastated and traumatised by the whole experience, not surprisingly.

[quote Babyghirl]@DebbieHarrysCheekbones
Well aren't you lucky to have a family just because I have to do things abit differently to get there does not make me a bad person 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️ but you know what when I do get to hold a son or daughter that child will know how much I fought and went through to get them and know that they will be loved until the end of the earth and back again.[/quote]
Ok you tell yourself that but the reality is you’re choosing to ignore the harm the baby will face, never mind the birth mother’s risks, to get what you want. Dress it up how you like but that’s the truth. The truth is that the newborn you hold in your arms will of course not know any of that - the only thing it knows will have been deliberately taken from it. You’re completely idealising the whole situation. Much as I sympathise beyond words with your infertility, your statements about surrogacy are just hideous.

Frankly I’m sick of this argument that if you haven’t been through infertility then you can’t have the right to an opinion on whether buying and selling babies is wrong.

Let’s turn it around then. Would it be ok to say to someone “you can’t possibly know what it’s like to be pregnant so you are not entitled to an opinion on what it’s like to carry a baby, feel it move, give birth to it and then give it up purely because you feel you should, either because you’re a friend of someone who feels you owe them the chance to be a parent, or because you know that this is the only way you can buy a better life for your children.”

If someone said that to an infertile woman on here they would be lynched. yet infertility apparently trumps every other right and feeling. You shouldn’t be allowed to celebrate a pregnancy because “what about the infertile who are struggling.” You can’t expect everyone to be happy re your pregnancy because “some people are infertile.” People shouldn’t be expected to be near your children because “they might be infertile,” and “you can’t possibly know what that’s like so keep your mouth shut.”

There are plenty of women who have fertility issues who aren’t comfortable with the idea of buying a baby purely because they feel they should be able to.

And frankly the argument made by someone on here asking another poster whether she was sure she really wouldn’t go down the route of surrogacy if she’d been struggling is nothing more than a line to justify their own decisions.

[quote Babyghirl]@theKeatingfive
Well you see it from my point of view swings both ways.[/quote]
Everyone CAN see your point of view. Women are commodities and your right to have a baby outweighs the health and wellbeing of the surrogate mother and the child.

Child trafficking is fine because your need for a child usurps everything else.

I find the talk of the apparently lower quality babies & children available through adoption to be some of the foulest & most despicable attitudes towards other human beings that I've ever read.
But then that applies to anyone who takes part in such a horrific practice as surrogacy.
You are talking about human beings here.

It's proof that people who think renting (or getting their new accessory a free squat in some friend/relatives body) a womb is reasonable don't actually want a child so much that they will love any child.
It's all about wanting one with the right attributes, just like any other product they buy.
I think exactly the same about people who don't actually pay for it.
There is no love or care for the child in this process.
It's monstrous.

Well you see it from my point of view swings both ways.

I do see it from your POV, infertility is incredibly hard. But you going through something very tough doesn’t give you the right to treat other women and babies as commodities. I’m sorry but that’s the truth.

You can die or suffer lifelong health problems as a result of pregnancy and childbirth. It’s not okay to put that risk onto others. No matter how willing they are.

@lifeturnsonadime
Im not most infertility people thou.

Because I have to go a different root to have my family does not make me a bad person, do you know what it feels like thinking your a failure and the embrassment you have because your body let's you down, not doing what it's made to do.
Waken up when you really don't want to day in and day out putting a smile on your face to let on your OK when deep down all you want to do is crawl in to a hole and not come back out again.

Well it's heart breaking and I mean heart breaking I avoid people only go to work and home again so I'm sorry if I'm being selfish

@Babyghirl no one is for one second minimising the horrific experience of infertility. They’re just saying that surrogacy is not an acceptable solution. I hope you find peace and get your happy ending, I really do.

I hope you find peace and get your happy ending, I really do.

I second this

Well I think dying from kidney failure is very sad but I don't believe you have a right to purchase an organ from a living donor. So whilst I'm sure infertility is very upsetting, my view on surrogacy being wrong doesn't change.

I am very sorry that you are experiencing all of that but ultimately it is not a right to have a child.

Many women experience what you experience but still do not think they have the right to obtain a baby through surrogacy.

I was extremely ill after I gave birth to my firstborn and he has attachment issues because I couldn't care for him due to emergency surgery. He suffers as a result of that now at the age of 15. Removing a child from their birthing mother is KNOWN to cause potential problems for babies. This is a human being you are proposing to bring in to the world you could be causing the child as well as the woman whose body you put under strain to give birth to that child harm. Why is your suffering more significant than theirs. I had no choice over being ill after giving birth and the subsequent issues my child has suffered despite me providing a loving and stable home you are making choices which put this baby you so desperately want at risk of harm. That's the truth.

So no I have no experience of infertility but I DO have first hand experience of attachment issues with my own birth child. I am qualified to have an opinion.

@NiceGerbil

I agree with you OP.

This thread will kick off. And there's unlikely to be any accord at the end. Very contraversial topic.

You're very brave!

This made me chuckle. You’ve not been on MN very long I’m guessing! It’s far ‘braver’ to stick your head above the parapet and state that surrogacy, when properly regulated, is a wonderful thing. MN is notoriously anti surrogacy. Though it’s refreshing to see a range of views on the first page for once :)

[quote Babyghirl]@DebbieHarrysCheekbones
Well aren't you lucky to have a family just because I have to do things abit differently to get there does not make me a bad person 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️ but you know what when I do get to hold a son or daughter that child will know how much I fought and went through to get them and know that they will be loved until the end of the earth and back again.[/quote]
It doesn’t make you a bad person
But it doesn’t change the biological facts of what I wrote
If you don’t experience that it isn’t going to change them

I will say I no longer express my anti surrogacy views in real life after a conversation with friends went like this...

Me...I'm against all surrogacy
Friend...what about when gay men use a surrogate?
Me...well I'm against all surrogacy
Friend...even gay men who use it
Me...well I'm against all surrogacy... the person's sexuality is irrelevant.
Friend...so you're against gay men using surrogates?
Me..I'm against all surrogacy

Hi all, I realise that this is one of those arguments that no can win :) No one's mind is changed by a MN thread, after all!

But I've got genuine knowledge on this so I'll weigh in anyway.

A decade ago I worked for a very highly-regarded ethical trade consultancy in the UK. We were asked by clients to to a fully data-driven, statistics-led analysis of human surrogacy and the conclusion was: only ever ethically acceptable when surrogate is an unpaid friend or family member who 'donates' their services.

It was honestly very clear cut when you looked at the data. Lots of PTSD and suicide even with educated, western, paid surrogates in the USA.

Absolute carnage in Asian countries where the mother's SURVIVAL rates were

I did have fertility issues not that I think it is really relevant to the discussion.

IVF is very difficult and emotional, I hope you are successful with the process @Babyghirl

It is considered to be so damaging to remove babies from their mothers that social workers will only get permission to do this in extreme circumstances

Perhaps that is true of today, but it wasn't true, then.

I was taken away from my mother at two hours old.

I never did meet her. It has left a huge hole in my life that I can feel but I cannot explain.

The hollowness is excruciating.

But I have empathy for those who desire a child..but not as much than I would have for that child, because I am that 'child'.

Putting aside the safeguarding reasons why a mother and child could not be together, most children would want to be with their bio mum.

Not having her in my life has made life so fucking unreachable. And please don't don't tell me, I've known no different. Trust me, I know what's missing. And that's my mother.

I hope I haven't offended anyone.

I imagine the majority of people who are surrogates or use a surrogate are doing it purely for giving the gift of a baby to a family.

Well no, they're not giving a 'gift'. They're being financially compensated, either directly or indirectly ('expenses').

When rich women start having babies for poor women then maybe just maybe I'll consider it a 'gift'. But they won't.

are doing it purely for giving the gift of a baby to a family

Should a human baby be created to be given away, as a gift?

As WoolyMammoth55 says don't let inconvient things like ethics get in the way of rich infertile westerners whose trauma of not being able to have their own child is the worst thing in the world.

Snugglepumpkin frames it very well. Its people who have everything else they've ever wanted in life and think they have the right to their own child because of their own fertility problems or practicalities. Strangely enough no one thinks of the poor woman with infertility issues or the poor gay couple who don't have the means to surrogacy who just have to suck up the fact they can't have everything they want in life. The advocates of surrogacy are merely people who have never heard the word no or throw a tantrum when someone does. Or when someone holds a microscope to the adhorent nature of surrogacy and the massive can of worms it opens to the abuse of women and commodification of babies.

Not only that, but many of the most high profile people who have had surrogate babies aren't infertile at all! And yet the whole debate hides behind the 'infertile' or 'gay' banner to justify it.

I find even altrustric surrogacy appalling in its own way. Someone offers to put their life on the line to give you a baby and you say yes??? Like wtf. Its something you can't ask someone else to do and say you aren't massively selfish. This is someone you are supposed to really care about or respect for being selfish. And yet, your happy to snatch that and go 'yes please'. Its just so wrong. There's something going on there in existing relationship or for people who don't previously know the surrogant parent thats not entirely healthy that causes that dynamic.

Its just awful and its driven by rich people who have the ears of government and money to line pockets - and the mothers and babies don't have a voice.

Time and time again when you see stories in the press about how wonderful surrogacy is, its massively one sided, with NDAs all over the place or simply women written out of the story. And the kids... well we know all these stories about adopted kids who feel the need to find their roots even though they've had happy lives, and we are starting to hear the stories of kids born with donor sperm and how important it is to track down their genetic roots - its a human need and desire to understand where we come from and help us form our own identity. And yet we now have a new batch of children who will be denied some of the means to track this down by being trafficked abroad or use of implanting embroyo so there is no DNA link. Worse still we know that there are cases of dodgy surrogate agencies passing off kids as being genetic children but turn out not to be further down the line. And then theres the hidden 'sale or return' type stories where things don't go quite to plan and the 'goods' are rejected for being 'faulty' in some way.

Dreadful. There is nothing 'good' or right about surrogacy.

Just PR and excuse and a massive load of cash being waved in the faces of everyone in the pursuit of getting what rich people want.

The actual children are the afterthought in it all.

It wasn’t unusual in the past that if a couple had more children than they could afford to feed, and relatives had none, or just one, for children to be “farmed out”. But the child would not have been conceived for the purpose of giving them away but through lack of contraception.

@Minster2012

Ahhhhh brilliant thread as ever

I'm in the UK & have a child through surrogacy. He was not "taken away from his mother at birth" he was, in all of our words "handed over to his mother".

The risks are well covered in agreements but you would only know that if you are open to finding out the ins and outs of it.

Certainly in the UK there is no exploitation and in fact it is the intended parents who have less rights through our outdated system. That's why celebrities go to the US.

So the woman who gestated your son fo 9 months, forming every cell of his body (other than the genetic material) from her own body, and who then pushed him out of that body... who was she, if not his mother?

Of course you have raised your son and are now his mother, but at the time of birth, he will have recognised the woman who gave birth to him as his mother. English law does too, and long may that continue. You are advocating a system whereby 'celebrities' go abroad to purchase a baby, knowing that the birth mother has almost no rights, as 'outdated' when surely what is outdated is reducing women to the status of brood mares.

That is why surrogacy in all its forms is outlawed in most of Western Europe. Again, long may this 'outdated' system continue.

Is it just same sex couples you have an issue with or surrogacy as a whole? I have never had fertility issues but there are plenty of people out there who do and surrogacy gives you the option to biological children when you can't carry your own. I commend anyone who wants to carry children for other couples. A lot of people do it for people they know personally like family members or friends. Don't presume everyone who does it is desperate and does it for the money. You can't charge for it here.