Or is the competitive under eating on mumsnet harmful?

[foreverlobsters]

Full disclaimer- I have a history of eating disorders myself so am possibly over sensitive to this.

Have been reading through another currently active thread as well as what we eat in a day etc (which I occasionally post on and do find interesting). Why do people feel the need to post about their extremely low calorie days on here, or give potentially harmful advice? What's the incentive exactly- and are these people lying about how much they really eat or is most of the mumsnet population in an extreme calorie deficit? Do these people not see how selfish and damaging these posts can be?

[quote foreverlobsters]@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe yes it does seem to be that way, doesn't it. However if everyone just stayed silent about it then that doesn't help either- maybe some people might read this thread then think more carefully about what they post in the future.

And yes, I will be contacting MNHQ, especially having seen how many other people agree with me and find it upsetting/disturbing/harmful. [/quote]
But will you be reporting the competitive over eating ones, which by far are the largest proportion of these ludicrous threads?

The bottom healthy bmi one had lots of worrying posts. As one poster eloquently put it the op was one poo away from being underweight plus regularly going day with no food at all. The nhs advice on bmi calculator for someone that height/weight was to contact your Gp. So many posters saying they weighed less or one who said she was chubby at 18 bmi. A few posters sensibly pointing out such a low bmi carried increased risk of osteoporosis in old age were dismissed.

@Dixiechickonhols, this is one example where I think the polarisation of discussions is at odds with the truth which is far more complex. What is healthy, BMI wise, is given as a range for very good reason.

Body composition makes a vast difference to weight and in turn health. Bone frame size can make a huge difference to weight and muscle mass. Appearance wise someone of a small bone frame can look fleshy / flabby but be at the lower end of BMI because of lower bone mass (narrower frame) and in turn lower muscle mass (narrower frame to sit on). It is possible for a person to have a low BMI but too high a body fat percentage, simply putting on fat or eating more wouldn't help them. They need to build muscle, if anything, which is more about training and eating correctly. Equally people have different activity levels and calorific needs. Muscle mass and whether that muscle is made up of fast twitch muscles or slow twitch muscles can also affect how energy is burnt.

How can anybody judge what is disordered eating without knowing why someone was choosing to fuel their body that way? Fasting has a place within fat metabolism and sports training, for instance,. It allows for endurance through better utilisation of fat as fuel during long races which means there is less burden on an athlete to constantly refuel during an event which can cause stomach upsets. People wil train fasted. Fasting in the right context can also be utilised as a therapy for improving fat burning metabolism and in turn insulin sensitivity in someone who is insulin sensitive.

A thread usually consists of lots of posts in which there are only snippets of information. Eating disorders are a consideration but only a small part of a much larger picture.

@Bluntness100 probably not, no, as they don't cause distress to me personally knowing that someone is eating more food than me. But if they cause distress to you then of course you should report them.

Doesn't mean I can't speak to MNHQ about the undereating/harmful posts on here.

@ItMustBeBedtimeSurely

Yanbu - I also have a history of disordered eating and inwardly cringe every time some one announces they’re on 1200 calories.

My GP has told me that the 1200 I was following is actually the max for me as a menopausal woman and I should be looking to reduce that…. 🤷‍♀️

Yes they have similarities and can be just as hurtful for both body types.

It just can't be as hurtful though, because of the societal context. It's like racism. I'm white and if someone discriminated against me for for that or called me a name, I'd be upset but it wouldn't really effect me because I'd know (perhaps subconsciously) that in general society is "on my side" (unfortunately). The opposite wouldn't be true though, a black person experiencing racism has not only the insult on the day, but the added burden of generations of racism.

@foreverlobsters

Full disclaimer- I have a history of eating disorders myself so am possibly over sensitive to this.

Have been reading through another currently active thread as well as what we eat in a day etc (which I occasionally post on and do find interesting). Why do people feel the need to post about their extremely low calorie days on here, or give potentially harmful advice? What's the incentive exactly- and are these people lying about how much they really eat or is most of the mumsnet population in an extreme calorie deficit? Do these people not see how selfish and damaging these posts can be?

I do think there is a lot of disordered eating on here, very much so.

That said though, knowing you have a history of eating disorders yourself, I would question why you'd enter those threads.

My best friend has been hospitalised multiple times with anorexia and a thread like that could only be harmful to her, and the only reason she'd be on there is to engage with thoughts she should be fending off.

@TreeSmuggler

Yes they have similarities and can be just as hurtful for both body types.

It just can't be as hurtful though, because of the societal context. It's like racism. I'm white and if someone discriminated against me for for that or called me a name, I'd be upset but it wouldn't really effect me because I'd know (perhaps subconsciously) that in general society is "on my side" (unfortunately). The opposite wouldn't be true though, a black person experiencing racism has not only the insult on the day, but the added burden of generations of racism.

Agree with this.

Obviously it's personally hurtful to be insulted for being slim, especially if you already have a complex about it yourself, but as a whole society looks kindly - covetously - on being thin compared to being fat. It doesn't carry the same weight (no pun intended!).

I have red hair and spent my whole childhood - tbh probably into my early 20s - being picked on for it and insulted about it. I'm sure blonde people get fed up with blonde jokes but equally they know that as a whole blonde hair is regarded by many as the height of beauty, and so it doesn't have the same effect as being relentlessly bullied for being ugly and the odd one out due to hair colour throughout your formative years.

[quote foreverlobsters]@Bluntness100 probably not, no, as they don't cause distress to me personally knowing that someone is eating more food than me. But if they cause distress to you then of course you should report them.

Doesn't mean I can't speak to MNHQ about the undereating/harmful posts on here. [/quote]
No it doesn’t cause distress to me. Although to be honest some times it causes me concern.

I agree with the pp, I think there a lot of people on here who have disordered thinking round food. The way people post salivating about what they want to eat and how much of it. It’s disturbing.

I see very little comp under eating, although it exists, ans I have no issue with diet threads, I do howver find the threads where people want to binge concerning and when they encourage others to binge.

grasstreeleaf it’s a range and of course bmi 18 doesn’t mean ED. Point I was trying to make was any other health condition where NHS advice was to see GP or where there are recognised potential health issues from a certain behaviour then most posters would recommend poster seeks medical advice. Whereas that seems to go out of window on weight threads - usual we’ve lost sight of a healthy weight trotted out.

@TreeSmuggler it's like racism is it?
Okay well it is no bloody wonder we are in this situation with obesity rates.
A person has no control over their skin colour.
I don't agree with body shaming anyone but we're at a point where GP's can't mention it.

The amount of teenage boys with bigger breasts than my own is shocking.

There is a middle ground.

I don't think it's ok to negatively comment on anyone's body but I really struggle to believe that thin people feel the same hurt as fat people...just as a pp said, that I struggle to believe white people experiencing racism feel the same as black people experiencing it

How can someone even question that insinuation that something must be wrong with someone and they are probably menatlly ill, isn't hurtful...
Frankly, the slim are in minority now.

I suffered an ED for many years but have recovered and I see a lot of threads on MN that I think are full of anorexic or people with ED.

I dont post on (or read) the what do you eat threads because I genuinely cant see the point and find them quite boring tbh but I know if I started I would compare myself and feel inadequate and greedy.
Even posts with pics of models that have clearly been airbrushed or photo shopped and every other poster claims they look like that (6ft tall and size 0)and that they eat perfectly healthy.
And the constant repeat of "we've lost sight of what a healthy weight looks like"

Of course its unhealthy to be overweight or obese but it is also unhealthy to be underweight and go without food for long periods of time...but somehow that's glossed over .
I live in a fairly MC area and work in London. It sounds very naive but sometimes I'm incredulous reading about the obesity crisis where 20 odd percent of the population are overweight or obese (as well as school children). A couple of family members are overweight and 2 work colleagues are very large, but the vast majority of people I come into contact with, (through work, sports club, DC school friends, school mums, neighbours etc) or in my sphere of family and friends are normal weight

There was thread ages ago about the Duchess of Cambridge and her figure and loads of posters saying how she's not that thin and they have exactly the same body shape as her, and we've all lost sight of a healthy weight blah blah. Other posters who had seen her irl had commented that she was one of the thinnest people they'd ever seen. It was quite interesting.

@Dixiechickonhols, BMI is a funny one. The initial charts came out of the insurance industry in America. Since then it has been made narrower so there is a sharper cut off for what is considered healthy and what is considered overweight. Previously a BMI of 26 (iirc) was considered still in the healthy range. Many people of Asian descent, for example, are advised to keep their BMI at the lower range because there are more instances of being 'skinny fat' (obese fat percentage normal BMI) amongst these populations.

I think advice to see a GP is given because of the complexity of what BMI can be considered healthy not just because being underweight has health risks associated with it. Equally advice over how to put on weight healthily is complex, the person may not need to increase fat but rather increase muscle mass which is no mean feat.

I think certain people are drawn to threads though. I'm pretty sure I subconsciously am to anything about weight/bmi because I've had an ED.

If you looked on earnings threads on MN you could be forgiven for thinking the average salary was about 85k when it's in fact nearer to 30k. Once the first 25 posters have said they earn upwards on 70k , not many people pipe up and say they earn 18k...so it is skewed to people earning above average.
Similarly on MN a thread about bmi attracts loads of posters who are "naturally" very skinny but also very healthy, eat healthily, lift weights etc when in RL these type of people are a small minority.

1,200 is pretty standard for a calorie deficit tbh. I'm tall, but this is what the NHS recommends for slow weight loss. It also recommends upping your water, lowering carbohydrates and upping exercise.
None of this is extreme. My BMI was nearly 30 when I started, with 6+ inches of fat round my belly. That's dangerous and dieting is a tool I need to be healthy.

I think your main problem is that you are looking at dieting advice through the lens of someone who doesn't need to diet/had eating disorder. The above behaviour is indicative of an eating disorder if you are already a healthy weight. But for those of us that aren't it's a toolbox to get to a healthy weight. When I was a size ten it was very easy for me to lecture people about how I ate 2000 calories a day and was fine. Once you have gained that weight it's a completely different story and different tactics are needed. Now I have been on the other side I am much more understanding of how others' may resort to more extreme methods, which may not be good long-term. I'm not going to judge someone's method to lose weight, as we are all individuals and different things work for different people.
I assume the poster who posted about bananas has read, 'Why we eat to much'. Very interesting information about how our genes added to an unnatural diet add up to weight gain. I haven't got to the end yet, but I suspect it is going to go down the 'maintain a healthy lifestyle rather than diet' direction. Certainly lowering empty calories and drinking more water is a part of that.

Honestly I think yabu. I'm currently doing the fast 800 to lose my annual stone after the summer and have found the low cal recipe suggestions from other posters really helpful. I know 800 calories is not good for me in the medium term but it's only for a 4 weeks and it works for me
I think people with disordered eating should stay well away from the weight loss chat full stop but it ultimately comes down to personal responsibility.

[quote EmeraldShamrock]@TreeSmuggler it's like racism is it?
Okay well it is no bloody wonder we are in this situation with obesity rates.
A person has no control over their skin colour.
I don't agree with body shaming anyone but we're at a point where GP's can't mention it.

The amount of teenage boys with bigger breasts than my own is shocking.

There is a middle ground.[/quote]
TreeSmuggler wasn't saying obesity is the same as racism.

She was just using it as a parallel when discussing the differing impact of being insulted for being fat compared to be insulting for being thin.

@Fizbosshoes

I live in a fairly MC area and work in London. It sounds very naive but sometimes I'm incredulous reading about the obesity crisis where 20 odd percent of the population are overweight or obese (as well as school children). A couple of family members are overweight and 2 work colleagues are very large, but the vast majority of people I come into contact with, (through work, sports club, DC school friends, school mums, neighbours etc) or in my sphere of family and friends are normal weight

I don’t know where you got 20% from: the actual figure is 52.7% of of British women are overweight or obese. And 66.6% of men.

My take on all the diet threads is not that there are loads of thin women trying to get thinner, but that there are loads of overweight women trying to get less overweight.

It’s true that as a MC Londoner you don’t see that many obese people around. But leave London, particularly if you go north, suddenly there are loads.

I'm not surprised that over half of women are overweight. It's quite easy to be very slightly overweight...you probably won't even look particularly big if you're a couple of pounds overweight nor will you be a gluttonous lazy individual.

The majority of adults were overweight or obese; 67% of men and 60% of women.

This included 26% of men and 29% of women who were obese.

NHS statistics.

It's a really worrying health risk.

I see far more mention of over-eating than under-eating on mumsnet. Far more. I'd never heard of a "snack cupboard" before I came on mumsnet.

I see far more mention of over-eating than under-eating on mumsnet. Far more. I'd never heard of a "snack cupboard" before I came on mumsnet

So do I, and on the diet threads I only see overweight people trying to loose weight and usually in a healthy manner too.

However if you have a disordered relationship with food you may perceive any food restriction as unhealthy or triggering, or to use the mn phrase, comp under eating.

It the over eating that’s the much wider issue on here. People egging each other on, posting about how much they eat, what they want to eat, what they are eating and doing so in a way that comes across deeply unhealthy. What they eat in the car after doing the supermarket shop, or what they eat in the evenings or their secret drive through escapades.

There must be a correlation between percentage who are overweight or obese and the over eating posts we see on here.

I read the 'I don't even know what quavers are' and 'fill up on glasses of water' thread and it was bonkers.

But the likelihood is that people aren't really telling the truth about what they eat. More people in this country are overweight than underweight and if we assume that Mumsnet is representative (which it probably isn't but who knows) then more people will be overweight on here too. The competitive under eating people are a minority but because some of them say absolutely ridiculous things, like 'Europeans haven't evolved to eat bananas', then it tends to stick in the head. And more so if you suffer from an ED.

As to fat shaming - I'm slim, possible thin, but I like how I look. I have been called lanky and skinny and all of that over the years and told to eat a pie etc etc etc but I honestly don't think that stuff is as hurtful as the insults that overweight people get. Being small is aspirational and nobody can pretend it isn't, just look at the media in this country, and being large is associated with all sorts of negative things. So while 'skinny shaming' does exist, I really don't think the effects are the same as fat shaming.

Back to the OP - just hide the threads (as you've said). I've got three incredibly fussy children and I can't look at the ones about kids lunchboxes and stuff. People on here would cringe if they saw what my daughter eats (or doesn't eat) and frankly I would be over the moon if she ate a petit filous or a plain wrap or some other sugar-filled demon food. It's makes me anxious and depressed to read those threads so I don't.

I think mumsnet demographic is less likely to be overweight - London centric, degree educated. People post on topics that interest them. Weight loss or food threads do definitely attract extremes on mumsnet. It’s not just confined to weight loss section, I can see how it’s easy to stumble across.