To think faith schools should be forced to change their application process?

[storminborehamwood]

Most people accept that you can't discriminate against someone for their religion. So why can faith schools do it when it comes to kids getting a place?

AIBU to think state-funded faith schools should be forced to remove religious criteria from applications?

I know state-funded faith schools get extra funding from religion and that supposedly justifies giving priority to kids with religious ties.

I just can't understand why it's illegal to mark someone down for a job application based on their religion, but it's okay to do it for a school application.

@SunIsBehindGreySky

What about the CofE is no longer Christian, exactly?

They stopped believing that God created man and woman and doesn't make mistakes, they now offer multiple baptisms for human (politician, Dr, charity, individual) created man and woman under the ideological belief that God makes mistakes.

I'm confused by this comment. What are you referring to? None of this happens in the church where I live.

@MrsColon

Faith schools are part funded (to the tune of quite a lot of money) by the church/religion. The state would have an enormous funding gap to fill if they refused to have faith schools.

I'm RC, I contribute to the collection every week - I want my son to go to a Catholic school. He can't, because there isn't one nearby, but I don't begrudge paying so that other Catholic children can benefit. I'd be pretty annoyed if non-Catholic children were prioritised over Catholics (unless they're vulnerable/looked after etc.).

If faith schools were funded exclusively by the church (or other relevant religious body), then I think you would have a valid point. But as they get a large proportion of their funding from taxpayers, I don't think it's fair that your child should have more options than mine.

@SunIsBehindGreySky

CofE gave up being Christian a while back in my opinion. I gather Charles plans to quit Christianity for some new faith, a woke universal morale code, so this is what the CofE is preparing for, a mash up of ideologies, defender of faths he will be. The new state religion will be the international woke ideologies and a kind of mash up with Christianity etc.

The CofE still doesn't allow gay couples to get married in their churches. Hardly "woke".

@LaetitiaASD my DH doesn't believe God exists.

However, he is always a Jew in the eyes of the world- his name, his hair, his north london accent, the schools on his CV. He was once at a Green Party meeting and he was told to leave by activists for the palestinian cause, he is a colonizer. Despite this, he still votes Green to this day but he knows that he would always be regarded as Jewish no matter how much he claims to be irreligious.

So when our child is born jewish, we decide to educate our child in our faith so that he or she would have a support network when he or she is called a 'filthy jew/colonizer' in future (and that would probably happen at some point). I decided to convert so that our family could share the same religion. Two of my husband's sisters are in the process of moving to israel/have moved to israel, the hebrew learned from their time in Jewish school would put them in good stead.

Faith schools are part funded (to the tune of quite a lot of money) by the church/religion. The state would have an enormous funding gap to fill if they refused to have faith schools..

Nonsense. New faith schools have 90% capital funding from the state plus all of their ongoing costs. But somehow 100% control over admissions. There's a more complicated issue with older faith schools where the land belongs to the church (but often all the maintenance for decades has been paid for by the taxpayer)

The CofE is a 'broad church', including fundamentalist evangelicals on the one hand and nonrealist theists on the other. SunIsBehind's unevidenced opinion/anecdote probably isn't worth unpicking tbh.

This topic has been done to death OP. You seem to want to send your DC to a faith school and benefit from all the advantages but not bother with them adopting that religion? That's taking the P**S, surely

Even if all faith schools were privately funded, people would still argue that they if they were not admitted because they did not belong to that religion, it was discrimination

@mustlovegin

Even if all faith schools were privately funded, people would still argue that they if they were not admitted because they did not belong to that religion, it was discrimination

I don't think there's any evidence of that. There are plenty of religious private schools, so if people were going to complain they'd be doing it already. Have you actually seen that happening?

@mustlovegin

This topic has been done to death OP. You seem to want to send your DC to a faith school and benefit from all the advantages but not bother with them adopting that religion? That's taking the P**S, surely

Well they seem to want to take my taxes but not bother with my children 🙄

Have you actually seen that happening?

I haven't seen it myself, but the way things are going, all the CF**ery and entitlement, it wouldn't surprise me

I've campaigned against this for years with the Humanist association. All the schools bar one in my town are discriminatory schools, and as there are far more children than places every school is oversubscribed by 15-20 applicants. No non-religious kid has gotten a place at a faith school since I started following the data about 16 years ago. Therefore all the religious ones can choose the most devout/sharp-elbowed, and the rest of us are stuck travelling 2-3 towns away.

Many parents here fake religion to get in. They discuss at nursery school which church they're attending. The churches demand two years attendance with no grandparents - only parents. The Sunday service looks like a nursery school - buggies up the aisles and nothing but families whipping out crayons for toddlers as far as the eye can see.

Other parents are known to pop into the Greek Orthodox Churches, or the Romanian ones, some of which demand only 2-4 weeks attendance, to have their forms signed. Despite not being Greek, Romanian, or at all religious.

The churches don't want to change it as they know attendance will plummet if it no longer has a bearing on little Tarquin's entrance forms. They will only be left with the genuinely religious, who'll probably be glad of the peace. The government don't want to change it as they know so many thousands of their voters play this game and would be outraged if they can't "choose" the "best" school by spending not money, but time. Not everyone can give up every Sunday for 1-2 years to fake-attend services/Mass, and I would have thought more would be morally opposed to it.

Should have seen one mum slink away when she joined us at the gates saying how worried she was, like us, that her kid had no chance of getting in anywhere, yet when places were doled out she'd been warming the pews at St Fakealot's for a couple of years. Had us all convinced she was one of us and clearly couldn't admit she was playing the game.

@MattyGroves

Faith schools are part funded (to the tune of quite a lot of money) by the church/religion. The state would have an enormous funding gap to fill if they refused to have faith schools..

Nonsense. New faith schools have 90% capital funding from the state plus all of their ongoing costs. But somehow 100% control over admissions. There's a more complicated issue with older faith schools where the land belongs to the church (but often all the maintenance for decades has been paid for by the taxpayer)

Taxpayers, who are also members of different faiths and want their children to be schooled in faith schools?

You use the word 'taxpayer' as if no one who goes to church pays tax!

I don't agree with much of what my taxes are used for but I have no choice in the matter. Ditto those who oppose faith schools.

@mustlovegin

This topic has been done to death OP. You seem to want to send your DC to a faith school and benefit from all the advantages but not bother with them adopting that religion? That's taking the P**S, surely

They're taxpayer funded.

In a town of 22 schools my 'heathen' children are only allowed to appy to one - how is that fair?

Rannva I understand your situation if there is no other option where you live. But often people have two or more options and they still choose the religious school as it's better but don't want to bother with religion, or despise said religion, mock it, etc. I've seen countless threads on MN, it's disgusting

And I agree with PP that a lot of taxpayers are religious anyway

13% of the population regularly worship, 37% of primaries are faith schools. So more non religious tax payers funding religious schools

I don't want to send my children to a religious school but it has a knock on effect. I have already explained that because my two closest schools wouldn't take my kids, I have to look further afield and then the good secular schools wouldn't take my kids either because we're further away.. so I get stuck with a terrible religious school (religious parents often avoiding it in favour of the ones close to my house) or a secular school a long way away. And that's not even as bad as @Rannva's situation.

I also - even though it wouldn't have been my first preference - do understand and think it's reasonable to want to send your kids to a school that is very close by even if it's religious and you're not. Especially for working parents, that can be really useful. All I think is that everyone should get the same level of choice or religions can at least pay for their own schools

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@Travielkapelka indeed, op seems to be from Borehamwood where the religious schools she is referring to are Jewish. There are two state secondary schools, one Jewish, one not. The Jewish school was set up by the Jewish community and over the last couple of decades many Jewish families moved to Borehamwood so their child could go there. The Jewish school has some of the best academics in the country and a more middle class student body than the non-denominational school. But that is really pretty much entirely because it is a Jewish school (otherwise no reason to think it would be any different from the non-denominational state school).

I think what concerns me about these types of threads is that there is lack of tolerance to people who are different from you. In op's case, its jewish people. In other cases it might be catholics or other christian groups.

There are plenty school places in Borehamwood but in schools not as academic or middle class as the jewish school. So many in Borehamwood and elsewhere are angry at the local jewish community having better schools. But the schools would be just the same as the non-denominational school that op could easily send her child to if it wasn't a Jewish school. So you can't have the education offered by a Jewish school by saying it should be abolished It doesn't make sense.

I think its great in the UK that we are tolerant and open minded enough to provide partially state funded religious schools (which as I said must keep to certain standards and teach certain secular matters). These schools serve our diverse communities. If there aren't enough school places, of course there should be more. But that's not an argument to abolish good schools which serve a community that you happen to not be part of.

Its nothing like a GPs surgery. Also noone is being denied entry because of religion but children of a particular religion can be given priority for a school of that religion. Which entirely makes sense! If religious state schools are undersubscribed, they must let anyone in and many do.

I have family in Borehamwood and they have faced some hostility from non jewish neighbours accusing them of putting up house prices, having shops that they (the neighbours) don't want to shop in, having their own schools funded by the taxpayer (apparently Jews taxes don't count) and having everything "their way". Its can be frightening to Jewish people as this low level anti-semitism can lead to worse behaviour as we all know.[/quote]
Imagine saying that about a different religion

Sounds awful for the Jewish people there

It’s grammar schools that screw up the school system in my local area. Kids should just get the nearest school to their house. No application. Just the nearest one.

@mustlovegin

Even if all faith schools were privately funded, people would still argue that they if they were not admitted because they did not belong to that religion, it was discrimination

Nonsense. I couldn't give a toss if people want to send their children to fee paying religious schools. I have zero interest in sending my child to a faith school, so why would I choose to pay for it.

The problem is that religious families have more state funded options open to them than non religious families. How is that fair?

If we are going to continue to allow faith schools to discriminate, then I would like to see non-faith schools prioritising children from families which are not religious. However, that would result in fury in our area, as the religious parents typically pick the outstanding non-religious schools as their first choices while assuming that they have a god-given right to the faith schools as a reasonably acceptable back-up plan. As tax payer, I want my child to have the same rights within the state education system as any other child in my area. If I have to pay more tax in order to compensate for the paltry contribution that is actually made by the Church to our local faith school, then so be it.

@Poppitt58

It’s grammar schools that screw up the school system in my local area. Kids should just get the nearest school to their house. No application. Just the nearest one.

Yep, I would get rid of grammar schools too. And single sex schools for that matter. I would like all state education to be truly comprehensive.

To misquote Superintendent Chamlers

"A prayer! A prayer in a public school! God has no place within these walls, just like facts have no place in organised religion!"

Some strong views on this, then!

The comparison with a faith NHS GP is an interesting one. It got me thinking about faith public transport, too!

For those asking, I think it's unfair that my son can't go to our closest primary like his friend next door because it is CofE and we're not. How do you explain that to a 4 year old?

The fact it is a higher performing school makes it feel worse, but that's our problem, not his.

I would be genuinely interested to see what would happen if the law changed. Would state faith schools go private? I think it's more likely they would incorporate faith-based teaching into before and after school activities, paid for as an extra, which I'd be fine with.

I don't live in Borehamwood btw.