To think faith schools should be forced to change their application process?

[storminborehamwood]

Most people accept that you can't discriminate against someone for their religion. So why can faith schools do it when it comes to kids getting a place?

AIBU to think state-funded faith schools should be forced to remove religious criteria from applications?

I know state-funded faith schools get extra funding from religion and that supposedly justifies giving priority to kids with religious ties.

I just can't understand why it's illegal to mark someone down for a job application based on their religion, but it's okay to do it for a school application.

How do you explain that to a 4 year old?

There are many tough facts that you will need to explain during his lifetime, this is no different

@mustlovegin

How do you explain that to a 4 year old?

There are many tough facts that you will need to explain during his lifetime, this is no different

'Sorry, love, I know I tell you that we live in a country where we try to treat people fairly, but that doesn't apply to getting into school.'

It might be true, but it doesn't make it right.

Faith schools often owe their success to the support of people of faith and the strong ethos built over many years. It is quite possible to develop and seek funding for a humanist school, indeed there are I believe one or two. Faith schools often welcome people of different faiths or none, but I see nothing wrong with them giving priority to people who will share their ethos.

Maybe some facts to go with some of the anecdotes

Faith schools - RC and C of E , don't get extra money from the Church.
Also they will happily take children of different faiths or no faith, if there is room, and they must give a priority to and SEND kids.

Catholic schools serve more diverse and disadvantaged communities reflecting the multicultural nature of Catholics in England, many of whom come from the new and old migrant communities.
18.8% of pupils at Catholic primary schools live in the most deprived areas compared with 13.5% nationally. 16.5% of pupils at Catholic secondary schools live in the most deprived areas compared with 11.3% nationally.

40% of pupils in Catholic primary schools are from ethnic minority backgrounds compared with 32% nationally.

www.catholiceducation.org.uk/about-us/faqs

Faith schools shouldn't exist in my opinion, obviously it's not a matter of dismantling them over night. But no child should go to a faith school.

Jay smith and Errol - would Sunday assembly style stuff count in the worship assembly category? That would indeed be unfair if secularists and humanist couldn’t set up their own academies as state schools.

I don't think that the state should fund faith schools. Its outrageous that a priest, not an education professional, gets a say in whether a child goes to a school or not.

Have we learned nothing from the wars and conflicts around the world in the name of religion?
Education should be religion free, if your religion is that important then send your children for religious education after school/at the weekend.

I think lots of people on Mumsnet live in urban areas where there are lots of schools in a reasonable distance. Where I am is more rural with very few schools so when an oversubscribed community school is taken over by a religious academy chain and reserves 30% of places for those of their faith, surely there is problem to be seen? No? It’s a reduction of choice. And yes, the GP analogy is spot on and the history similar to the foundation of schools.

And to whoever claimed there are humanist schools - no there are not. Not in the Uk. The humanist society says the reason is this ‘Because Humanists UK campaigns positively for integrated inclusive schools for children of all faiths and none. It would be no less ethically unsound and socially divisive to set up overtly humanist schools in a pluralistic society than it is to set up religious schools’

Humanists can set up schools in areas where there is no secular school available.

But no child should go to a faith school

Why not?

Why not?
No child should be indoctrinated into a religion, if that happens at home it's out of people's control.

But schools should not facilitate such things.

Humanists can set up schools in areas where there is no secular school available

They wouldn’t, for the reasons they state, plus why should they? There is, as a pp, explained, no such thing as a ‘secular school’ as by definition, it would be illegal to not perform an act of daily worship. The fact is, ‘set up your own school’ is a crazy, inefficient and divisive solution that is no solution at all. Also secular isn’t interchangeable with humanist, secular means not having any connection with religion.
It’s also not interchangeable with atheist either.

OP just out of interest what are the school’s admissions criteria? Where does church attendance/faith come in the priority list?

As far as I’m concerned I object to the fact it is there at all, be it third, fifth or tenth. It is discrimination.

There are plenty of religious secularists, people who have a personal faith but who think that religion shouldn't come into public life except insofar as it informs individuals' opinions and actions (for example, everyone gets a vote, and is free to choose how to vote based on their religious opinions or otherwise, but churches don't get to have extra representatives over and above the representatives elected by popular vote).

Sure, but I think there’s a massive distinction between a) a child being denied entry to their closest school whilst children from much further away get a place purely on the basis of faith, and b) schools using faith to differentiate between applications after admitting all children who are eligible based on SEND/children of staff/sibling attendance/distance from the school.

(Distance from the school is arguably an unfair criterion too, but that’s a whole other discussion).

@ClumpingBambooIsALie

I'm imagining the reaction I'd get if I were somehow able to set up a faith NHS GP practice, built on land owned by a local religious group that also gave my practice a bit of extra funding on the side, say, for a monk to come in once a week and say prayers for the sick, but getting the majority of its funding from the state. By putting some extra prove-your-religion admin barriers in the way, I'd be filtering out not just people who have the wrong religion, but also people who find it more difficult to jump through admin hoops. Filtering out those patients might well mean my patients need fewer health services on average, so the patients I do accept will get a less-stretched service. This is totally justified, apparently, because some people want a GP service that will reinforce and conform to their religious beliefs — obviously, it's totally unreasonable to expect religious people to use a generic GP who provides services to everyone, and get their religious health-related concerns (prayers, religious guidance, rituals etc.) dealt with at their own community-funded religious institutions. Even if I'm the closest NHS GP practice to you, you might have to walk past my surgery to get to the one you're allowed to register at, the one that takes all the people who can't jump those hoops. Perhaps you'd prefer not to use my surgery anyway, because you'd rather not have a particular religious slant to your healthcare. But that doesn't mean that it's okay that you have to trudge past the nearby state-funded faith GP, with your dicky hip and your COPD, to get to the more distant, more stretched GP that a) will accept you and b) won't be pushing religion at you.

Love this.

Now sure how discriminating against children is seen as a religious thing to do but still.

@YouMeandtheSpew

OP just out of interest what are the school’s admissions criteria? Where does church attendance/faith come in the priority list?

Admission criteria, highest to lowest priority

1st Looked after children
2nd to 7th Attend CofE church :- ranked by frequency and sibling
8th to 11th Attend other Christian church
12th to 13th Practise other faith (non-Christian)
14th Proximity to school

We're 14th and places never get to 14th.

@LemonFantaGin

My son goes to a 'state funded faith school' and he is of no religion, there are also many other religions, not related to the 'schools religion' they are one of the best schools in the area, and faith does not determine your place at the school, many people will not apply because of the attached faith.

Faith schools have been taking children with no faith background for a long time now.

I know people whose kids went to faith schools and were then awarded grammar school places. I've no idea why they are, on the whole, better than non faith.

My view is, as long as the children are happy.

Maybe they were just lucky, but my dd and SiL are not at all religious and didn’t pretend to be, but still got places for Gdcs at a highly regarded C of E primary. They were within the catchment area though.

But why would you want your child to go to a religious school when you are not religious ?

@flippertyop

But why would you want your child to go to a religious school when you are not religious ?

Several people have already answered this. 🙄

Of course, once that extra funding from the churches goes and they stop being involved in education (or shift over to private as many grammar schools did at the start of the comprehensive system), there are all those venture capitalists and Toby Young to run the schools instead. Maybe. Education for profit. They might just close altogether instead, putting more pressure on the standard non religious schools instead.

@flippertyop

But why would you want your child to go to a religious school when you are not religious ?

If you live in a village and the village school happens to be an faith one, that's one very common reason. Tough luck on you if it's a popular oversubscribed one.

Yes -- the villages where the only primary is a faith school are a bigger problem. Though in some of them, faith is less of a consideration for entry. One of DH's cousins was in that situation; they're not C of E, but they got in. And of course there's Northern Ireland too.

The USA is interesting because the point of keeping religion outside of school was partly to protect religion. The Catholics were afraid that if it were taught in school it would make people less likely to send to Catholic school. In return, Protestants who were prejudiced against Catholics passed laws to ban any state funding of religion. In practice, as you'd expect, the atmosphere varies quite a lot depending on place. In New York City, they get off for the major Jewish holidays, Eid, and Lunar New Year as well as Easter and Christmas.

In Canada several provinces have separate state-funded Catholic boards. (Ontario is notorious because they fund Catholics but no one else.) But the regular boards are truly secular.