AIBU about people who say ‘they worked hard to get to where they are’?

[MessyMissyMe]

Generally these are highly paid people who were able to go to University (support from parents/inherited intellect/confidence and self belief built up by secure, happy childhood) or had the resources to start their own business and were lucky enough to get remunerated by employment that they enjoyed and were good at, didn’t have outside influences or stressors that made things harder/took up time they needed to study or build a career.

They basically are just LUCKY and don’t deserve their success anymore than a cleaner or a care worker living hand to mouth in social housing deserves their lack of.

AIBU to get annoyed at people who say this?

@QueenoftheFarts it’s not about being humble (you absolutely should be proud) it’s about recognising that not everyone will have the same opportunities to make their hard work pay off in the same way. Attributing all your success to only your own cleverness/stamina is buying into the idea that unsuccessful and poor people only have themselves to blame when that’s largely untrue.

If you care about the bigger picture and wider society (and there’s no compulsion to) then it’s actually really important to recognise that for every success there is a failure despite doing things exactly the same.

@MessyMissyMe

I went to University RyanReynolds. Didn’t find it particularly hard tbh!

Sounds like you went to the wrong university.

I’m not quite sure it’s luck. Privilege - think that’s the word.

I’m well paid, privileged and don’t work hard. Sorry. But I don’t think you ABU, people need to recognize their privilege and support others better.

I believe in privilege but I also believe in free will. Many people spend significant parts if their lives in cruise control. Yes they might be working very hard day to day but they may have never sat down and evaluated the options - the opportunities and options for making As Much Money as Possible (if that is what you want to do).

But some people don't have the ability to stand still & think about opportunities & options.

Oh totally agree. YANBU.
Always comes across as somewhat weak and defensive to me.

Like cleaners and roadsweepers don’t work hard? Like we don’t all know of loads of ‘managing director’ slackers.

Disagree. We had nothing in the early days of our marriage, lived hand to mouth but we sold a load of our stuff, bought a second hand van and started our own business. My husband worked bloody hard, took massive risks, 7 days a week for years to get our business where it is today. No family help, no university. He had a shit childhood too. Neither of us is highly educated. For some everything maybe handed to them but others do work hard to get what they have.

I agree with you in the sense that we are all lucky living in the UK compared to being born in a third world country with no access to education or even basic necessities like clean water. Clearly this puts all of us at a huge advantage.
However anyone who has been state educated in the UK has the same opportunity to work hard and do well and progress to university. Family background doesn't have to be a barrier here, if you work hard there is no reason why you can't achieve it whatever you want in life.

@longue
But some people don't have the ability to stand still & think about opportunities & options
Totally agree. In the UK probably 10-20% of the population don’t have that ability/opportunity. It’s terrible. That’s why I vote Labour. And of course it’s easier for some than others.

But today in the UK probably a good 80% of people DO have that opportunity. They do live in a reasonably safe neighbourhood. They do have access to a library and the internet. They do go to a decent school with decent teachers.

Economic and social deprivation to the extent it exists in the UK is terrible, but the majority of people in the UK are very privileged, if not to the extent of B.Johnson and Rees Mogg and Rishi Sunak. (Ok half the Tory Party).

The issue is that many people who have been brought up in a stable environment and who have well off parents may indeed have worked hard but you want to write them off as not having done so.

It's not that they haven't worked hard. It's that the statement "I worked hard to get where I am" ignores the contribution of their privileged upbringing to their success, implying that the only reason other people didn't do as well as them was because they obviously didn't work as hard. There are plenty of people who work hard all their lives and don't get great jobs and big houses!

There's a video somewhere, designed to highlight inequality, where a load of people get lined up for a short race with a cash prize. Before the race starts, the organiser says "Anyone belonging to an ethnic minority take one step back". "Anyone who was brought up in a poor area take a step back." "Anyone with a learning disability take a step back". "Anyone who...." etc etc etc. Quite a few people end up taking many steps back. Most people take at least a couple. Then the race starts. It's pretty obvious who's going to win, regardless of how hard anyone tries.

Turned into a predictable Competitive Hard Done By bun fight!

Statistically (and common sense, tbh) kids with parental support go on to achieve more than those who don't.

But you can't piss on everyone else's chips because of that.

Instead of being a dick about it, how's about we look at how to redress that balance for people who need it.

Snippy-snipping at people who work hard and happen to also have some privilege won't help. And frankly isn't very nice.

@MeredithGreyishblue how would you redress the balance?

I like the description of that video @lazylinguist

I also like simulator games that illustrate how much of your life is down to random luck (alter ego is a good old fashioned text based game if anyone’s got time to waste). Quite a few charities produce them to raise awareness of the concept that it isn’t enough just to make good choices/work hard.

I worked hard to get where I am. My dad died when I was young. I grew up on a council estate. Went to state school, (a rubbish state school). Left school at 16. Then proceeded to work fucking hard. Left home at 17 and lived on fresh air for about 10 years. So from my perspective, yes YABU.

But today in the UK probably a good 80% of people DO have that opportunity. They do live in a reasonably safe neighbourhood. They do have access to a library and the internet. They do go to a decent school with decent teachers.

Economic and social deprivation to the extent it exists in the UK is terrible, but the majority of people in the UK are very privileged, if not to the extent of B.Johnson and Rees Mogg and Rishi Sunak. (Ok half the Tory Party)

See I don't think it's just economic deprivation & obviously many in the West are "better off" than poorer countries.

There is a reason kids end up in gangs & drugs & that's not solved by going to the library more.

Yes, YABU. You're making a huge generalisation based on your personal experience only.

Sounds like jealousy tbh.

I was brought up by a single mother we never had any money and lived on a council estate. I had my son at 16 (only just finished my GCSEs) and got zero help from government no benefits (26yrs ago) i applied for over 100 jobs before I got my first job in insurance. I worked full time and brought my first house at 21. I had my second son at 22 and was a single mother to my two boys and went back to work when my son was 8 weeks old as I had to pay my mortgage and paid for full time child care. I have worked hard and even upgraded my house twice. I meet my husband 13 years ago and got married and had 2 daughters and supported my husband while he started his own business while still working full time. I now own properties worth over £1m and have 2 rental properties plus have a successful career and my husband has a successful company, we have savings and drive nice cars. Neither of us have ever claimed benefits, both where brought up on council estates with no money and never had hand outs. Neither of us got an education apart from GCSEs. Yes we have worked hard and do deserve Everything we have. Not everyone who is well off had help or handouts or comes from money x

[quote longue]@MeredithGreyishblue how would you redress the balance?[/quote]
How long you got?
(Start with making sure we we get an electable Labour party back together and ensuring this shitshow of a government is never allowed to make decisions for us again)

Education reforms, social care reforms, supporting child carers, more support for parents so they can be present, out of school provision that engages kids, more apprenticeships in professional services available at 16+, mentorship programs, curriculum overhaul, incentives, wellbeing & self esteem sessions, better careers advice.

There's literally endless things that could be done / better funded / tried again / improved. The gap could be bridged more than it is.

However, people who had a "standard" upbringing with "normal" opportunities and support shouldn't be lumped in with the uber privileged and made to feel less. That's not on.

Plus, you never really know what's going on in someone's life. Sometimes people overcome hurdles you never knew about.

Yes you are BU.
My husband had a crappy abusive and unsupported childhood and built his business from scratch after leaving school at 14. He is very successful, we are very very comfortable financially and that’s down to him. I had a better upbringing but still working class in a London council estate with parents who worked long hours, sag drank and gambled, we didn’t have much. I wanted to teach so I went to the library and researched how to do it - I went to Uni at 22 and worked part time to support myself.
We both worked really really bloody hard to get what we wanted, no luck involved.

It would be something approaching humane if people didn't use the words 'hand-outs' on here.

Currently in Britain one in five children are living in poverty.

There are other uncertainties, not least for those who have caught Covid and battling longer term effects of this.

There is news that cuts are even worse now for special needs children.

The Universal Credit 'upllift' is being scrapped - sure that many are affected by that.

For people with long term illnesses and disabilties, and in receipt of Employment and Support allowance, in the news has only just emerged that this group, i.e. millions of people didn't get the twenty pounds a week in the first place.

Millions of people are waiting for operations right now...

The list goes on.

Such benefits and help for people such as free school meals, are not 'handouts'.

I get that, and I really care about people who are unlucky, or who, no matter how hard they work can't get ahead. I've seen it, I was even experiencing it for a while and I did have some luck to break through those barriers (while working very hard) and I work to change that divide between the haves and have nots by volunteering in various capacities, in particular around socioeconomic barriers to mobility and access to employment and sports opportunities.

I thought the comment was that everyone who says they worked hard to get where they are was basically bulshitting because they were already privileged, or had a leg up... and that's not true and i think it isn't a reasonable thing to say.

Lots of successful people have had lots of shit luck. I've had lots of shit luck too!

On reflection though, and while I remain proud of my hard work, I realise I did have a privilege, and that was that my mum always believed in me. And having just one person in your corner even if there's no dinner on the table can make a massive difference to your journey. So maybe I was the luckiest one of all.

Your candle doesn't shine brighter because you blew out someone else's

There's an indecent amount of work to do to increase social mobility and promote fairer opportunities. But dragging the average dude on the street really can't help anyone.

Be angry with the government and the arrogant, blinkered fools who are shitting all over our poor and working classes.

Well said Meredith.

I think YABU a little. I do agree that very financially successful people who can attribute their success to something like reality tv 🙄 probably are quite lucky though I suppose you could argue that they worked 'hard' to promote themselves as such and find these opportunities. I'm not really well off and until last year hadn't worked for ten years - single mum with two children who have additional needs. However I started at the bottom of my department seven months ago and now hold the highest level job in that department. That has been down to pure hard work, there's been no luck involved just absolute determination and hard work to progress as quickly as possible. Some people are happy to be in these lower paid jobs which is more than acceptable if that's what they 'want'. Sometimes working hardER will create better results...

It is both.

It is true that often privileged people don't like to acknowledge luck.

I was lucky to have two parents, stable upbringing, comfortable enough for my mum to stay at home for a few year when we were young and also encourage us in extra curricular activities and to buy books etc.

However..... neither of my parents went to university or showed any interest in me doing it, so I did it on my own in terms of going to open days etc. And I was badly bullied at my quite gritty school for being clever and doing my schoolwork. Being "clever", in the sense of having the type of brain that does well academically was just luck, BUT having to grit my teeth and push through when it would have been easier just to try to fit in and not bother was all me.

I don't generally think "I worked harder" than anyone else really, though, because you never know what challenges people face and you also have to think about it in the round in terms of what is "hard work" anyway. In my twenties, I regularly worked days that were 14-18 hours long in the City, so I did work hard, but my job was (and is) secure, physically safe and not demanding on an emotional level. I worked long hours, I put a lot in, but no one died and I was able to sit down and drink a lot of tea whilst I was doing it! Plus, when I worked hard, work paid for my meals at my desk and I was well paid enough to afford a cleaner and forego some of the unpaid work that others undoubtedly did outside work.