Gutted about NI rise

[CarryOnNurse20]

I know we need it and we have so much money to pay off. But we have been scrimping and saving after a hard couple of years. Every penny is accounted for from pay day to pay day. I’m a nurse and my pay has been capped/below inflation my whole career. And now the NI rise means any savings etc we have made will now be gone. I’m gutted.

@thecatsthecats

Possibly an unpopular opinion, but I think it bizarre that older people expect to hang onto their homes as well as take up a new home in a social care setting.

I will only need one home when I'm older, and care also. Having an asset I can sell to fund that is perfectly logical. Sad, but then so is lots of stuff associated with aging. You're entitled to be sad, but expecting to pass on thousands and have your care funded is taking the piss.

Bring on euthanasia. I want the freedom to die, and to live well before that.

(caveat, yes yes, lots of different circumstances etc)

The trouble is it's often the same people who don't want to raise national insurance, don't want deprivation of assets to fund social care but do want a thriving NHS. They think the Government should pay for it, without wholly understanding that, in this case, the Government is us, as the Government itself doesn't make a penny in income.

YABVVVU. If you want the elderly to be cared for and the NHS to receive the urgent extra funds it needs, then raising taxes is inevitable. I bet the same people complaining about this tax rise also frequently moan about the state of the NHS and how it’s in dire need of more money. You cannot have it both ways.

In a way, I don't necessarily mind. I've done a lot of work alongside social care-related sectors and this profession is absolutely the 4th emergency service and should be treated as such, with proper funding and recognition for what social care staff do. And it's important to remember that adult social care isn't just about the elderly - its anyone over the age of 18 who needs some form of care and support to live independently.

However.

There is a weird obsession in the UK that you take care of yourself and live independently your entire life, with benefits as a safety net until you become a pensioner. At which point, people refuse to take care of themselves and expect the state to pay for everything, from bus passes, winter fuel allowances to care fees. I'm not quite sure where/why this came from, but I don't quite understand why people think its so bad to have to pay for their own care/residential living and why they should be sitting on a £400k fortune (a house).

Is this because we now have generations that expect an inheritance?

Many pensioners are incredibly wealthy. My parents can't understand how people were financially affected by Covid because they (and all their retired friends) were ok - in fact, not being able to spend money meant that they actually increased their savings! Because they are daily mail readers, it's like talking to a brick wall.

Personally, I think that the winter fuel allowance should be scrapped / bus passes scrapped (or at least these should be means-tested) and there should be more inheritance tax or capital gains tax. I think Theresa May have the bones of a good idea with the social care insurance scheme, however, as soon as it was labelled a 'dementia tax' it was always going to fail. Which is a shame, because it could have worked quite well.

The trouble is it's often the same people who don't want to raise national insurance, don't want deprivation of assets to fund social care but do want a thriving NHS. They think the Government should pay for it, without wholly understanding that, in this case, the Government is us, as the Government itself doesn't make a penny in income.

This. It would seem that some people really do believe there’s a magic money tree.

There could be other ways of raising tax - remove the exemption on your principle private residence for Capital Gains tax for a start. Maybe exempt the last two years or so.

Other countries I believe do levy such taxes - isn't that why Boris Johnson decided to renounce his American citizenship - they came after him for tax on the sale of his house? I believe he paid up in the end.

@Xenia

I don't agree about the benefit of house price rises however as (i) we sold 3 properties at a loss in the 1990s including our home bit losses eg a flat bought at £75k for £50k kinds of losses and had been paying 14% interest rates (ii) as prices rose of my current house that just meant I had to take out a £1.3m mortgage to buy out my ex husband so no use having that price rise -just was a detriment to me (iii) prices rising has meant I have had to help the 5 children buy their first property - last one in Jan 2021 which is why I am 59 and have no savings and no pension other than state when I turn 67 and will work until i die. The fact there is equity in my mortgaged house in which I wll live until I die is not real cash as I want to do as my parents and my father's mother did - live in the one house until I die. If this house were in Newcastle from which I had to move to find work away from all babysitting and family support, nor would there be as much or any inheritance ta xon it but just because it is in the SE it means if I die with the £500k IHT allowance (I am single) then anything over that means the children are homeless because of IHT whereas same house in the NE and the children retain a home if I die.

The only "benefit" is if I were downsizing to a flat I suppose.

As you said you bought your 5 children a home (each I assume) and you were able to get a 1.3 million pound mortgage, my sympathy for you is zero.

There was a white paper in 2009 that suggested that if a person dies with an estate, there should be a 5% tax on that estate to fund social care. No matter how large or small everyone pays 5% of their estate. No caps on the amount of care a person needs, no having to buy property or plan for care home costs, the state funds everything from the pot. Everyone apart from those with no assets pay into the pot and have their care needs met. It was ridiculed as a 'death tax' by the Tories and Andy Burnham was laughed out of parliament. So here we are...

@lllllllllll

YABVVVU. If you want the elderly to be cared for and the NHS to receive the urgent extra funds it needs, then raising taxes is inevitable. I bet the same people complaining about this tax rise also frequently moan about the state of the NHS and how it’s in dire need of more money. You cannot have it both ways.

The general view appears to be that income tax should be the source of the money, not NIC.

The former is a progressive tax, the latter regressive.

@MondayYogurt

The richest people in this country have become significantly richer during the CV crisis.

I don't see why the working population needs to support our profligate and crony-riddled government when the wealthy elites have gained during this time.

You have every right to be upset.

my thoughts exactly.

I am of course happy to invest in the NHS/Social Care, and it isn't a huge amount of money for us, but I think there other places they could look for the cash first.

I agree and I also stand to inherit some day. My father is always trying to persuade my siblings and I into creative ways of avoiding the inheritance tax which will be due when he passes. My take on it is that it is pure luck and unearned by me and the state SHOULD tax the shit out of it to support wider society. I am myself a low earner and could certainly 'do' with the money but I am very happy for a large wedge to go into the pot to create a decent society from which I and my children will also benefit. Most people think I'm nuts though

I admire you, but sadly you are an exception. All my most uber-lefty friends, who rant about Tories and social injustice and how terrible underinvestment in our services are blah blah also want to preserve their inheritance and rile against any suggestion of any lessening of their economic advantage from the state. I have one such friend whose parent died recently and talks quite openly about how their lawyer is trying to come up with a wheeze to avoid some capital gains tax on the windfall she will get from property/ trusts fund and various other assets. Says she wants a socialist state but someone else should pay for it apparently.

It’s also baffling how so many people are up in arms about helping the elderly. Are they so shortsighted that they forget they too will one day get old?

They have money to spend on pointless war after war but no money for social care.

They are an utter disgrace and shambles.

I think Theresa May have the bones of a good idea with the social care insurance scheme, however, as soon as it was labelled a 'dementia tax' it was always going to fail. Which is a shame, because it could have worked quite well.

Theresa May's problem was bringing out the idea in an election campaign. If she had brought this idea up as soon as she became PM and kept drip feeding the information, she might have had some success.

It’s also baffling how so many people are up in arms about helping the elderly. Are they so shortsighted that they forget they too will one day get old?

Oh look! A straw man!

The general view appears to be that income tax should be the source of the money, not NIC.

The former is a progressive tax, the latter regressive.

I’d be happy for the money to be raised through income tax instead. As long as it is raised.

I'm horrified by some of my very comfortably off friends who intend to spend everything they have and then throw themselves on the mercy of the state when they gave no money left

I think they should take a good hard look at just how poor that state provision will be.

Oh look! A straw man!

Nope - just the truth.

An increase on income tax, VAT or inheritance tax would have been a much fairer way to get the additional money seen as the government are determined to allow big businesses to trade in the UK without paying their share of the tax bill

The NI specific raise could actually break the budget for some families, it's taking money from your pay before you even get it. At least with VAT you can shop around carefully.

I've had to increase my hours at work to accommodate our unwanted increased cost of living...the proposed NI increase pretty much wipes out the extra hours I'm working and puts us back at square one.

The sooner people see that the conservatives are always about keeping the wealthy in their oils the better.

Whilst I don't agree with raising NI as the way to pay for social care. I think they have taken the lazy approach. Those that keep saying wealthy pensioners will get away with paying nothing seem to forget that pensioners have already paid NI for decades. This is how NI works you pay it forward.

Also, wealthy pensioners are not entitled to social care. It is Means tested.

My parents worked in factories and other low paid jobs their whole working lives. They did everything that the government asked them to do. They paid their taxes, they paid their NI, they saved, they put money into ISAs, they lived frugally, they went without and now because they have a fair amount of savings not wealthy by any means, they will not be entitled to social care at the moment.

I don't think people should go without and I don't think those on lower incomes should have to pay more but I am fed up reading that people are putting it on those who are already pensioners. They have already paid their way.

@lllllllllll

Oh look! A straw man!

Nope - just the truth.

This thread is overwhelmingly people saying 'this needs to be paid for, but NI is totally not the right mechanism'. So yeah, it's a straw man.

(As are most threads and debates I've seen on this issue. Ditto polling.)

What kind of country offers "free" care to everybody except the old?

If you choose to have children, the care is funded. If you choose a lifestyle that brings illness, you get free care. If you are an addict, you get free care.
Why are you suddenly not part of society in old age? nobody chooses to get old.

@lassingd

Torys doubling down on the senior vote. Given seniors are the fasting growing demographic, and most likely to vote tory, I can see the political logic.

What's the reason for not increasing income tax instead? None

No really - to survive as a party medium to long term they need to attract younger voters.

VAT tends to hit the poor more. An increase on Income Tax, inheritance tax or reforming Capital Gains tax would all be better ways of raising the money.

Or scrapping Trident.....

@theleafandnotthetree, my dad's the same. My ILs too! The way I see it is that I didn't earn the money so I haven't really missed out on anything if I inherit less. Inheriting anything is a bonus for me. I would give it to my dc anyway as they'll likely need it more than me by then.
Inheritance is largely money from crazy hoyseprice rises over the last 20 years. It is essentially luck depending on which decade you happened to be born. Some people will never inherit anything.

They have money to spend on pointless war after war but no money for social care.

How was improving the lives of millions and women and children pointless? It was only rendered pointless when Biden stupidly pulled the plug.