To think the proposed NI increases for social care are unfair?

[shouldbeworkingmore]

I recognise that social care needs funding but think that this proposal unfairly targets the younger generations. Plus we already have income taxes by stealth as the thresh holds have been frozen & wage stagnation is likely to continue for the next decade.

@RubyRhubarb

I recognise that social care needs funding but think that this proposal unfairly targets the younger generations.

I do think that, I just don't understand why that means I don't think I will get old 🤔

and then say 'we' as though you are part of the younger generation
"Plus we already have income taxes by stealth as the thresh holds have been frozen & wage stagnation is likely to continue for the next*

No I said we because it's all workers that have suffered from wage stagnation & frozen thresholds not just younger workers.

There is some logic to taxing workers and not taxing pensioners. If people of working age don't have money taken off them to pay for old age, they probably won't set aside the amount needed, and may not work as much over the lifetime as they would if they were only funding their other needs. In all sorts of ways, many people limit the amont of work they do to cover the income they foresee needing. Examples are those taxi-drivers who knock off for the day when they achieve their daily income target, and people who retire when they reach a savings target. Both these groups will work less if lower taxes make it possible to reach their net income target sooner. The right-wing idea that lower taxes make people work more isn't necessarily true, it can have the opposite effect.

In short, if you put an extra burden on working people, they can work more/for longer to create the wealth needed to cover the burden. Put the burned on a pensioner, and you just make them poorer.

NI is the easy option - almost a stealth tax which enables the government to say 'oh we have one of the lowest income tax rates' blah blah. Yes but you add on NI it starts to get pretty damn high.

And its not just young - its disproportionate to lower earners too as it ramps down at high earner rates.

low earner? Pay 20% income tax...
oh thats good.

...and 12% NI
wait - so I'm really paying 32%?

Higher earner? 40% income tax for you...
Ouch.
...but only 2% NI
so 42% in total? OK not that much worse than lower earners.

Its a suprisingly flat tax rate when you calculate the actual reductions to your gross pay

@Carboncheque

How about it going onto council tax? As it’s local authorities who pay for social care. That way it would charge everyone, including the elderly, according to their means (council tax bands are based on house value.)

Our council tax went up because of it…..don’t see how that’s fair, it’s a huge chunk of income as it is

And the triple lock is totally unaffordable. Sad but an economic fact.

As a Chartered Tax Advisor I’d love to hear your ideas for “going after Amazon and Starbucks etc”. It’s an international tax landscape. We can’t just decide to introduce taxes on these companies without thinking if their international footprint.

Yes as much as I wish we could do more it involves global cohesive action.

I think there does need to be a recognition of the reality of living longer but again people don't like discussing it

Absolutely; hence why folk might agree there's an issue in principle, but once a very aged dear one becomes sick they want every intervention to keep them going - often in great distress - way beyond their time

Apologies for bringing Covid into this, but I'm reminded of the BBC's infamous remark about the "tragedy" of a 93 year old's death from it. A massive sadness for those who loved her of course, but a tragedy? At 93?
As said, this is what we've come to in a society where death's become taboo

The tax is to allow the rich to pass down an inheritance. Everyone has to pay but only the rich will benefit. I can’t see how they thought this was a good idea?

@Carboncheque

How about it going onto council tax? As it’s local authorities who pay for social care. That way it would charge everyone, including the elderly, according to their means (council tax bands are based on house value.)

But that ignores the fact that some houses can have 5 people living in them, and other houses just one.l

Maybe we need a tax on people ? We could call it a "roll tax" or something ?

The narrative that the older generation fought in the war

I think my Boomer parents (both born in 1947) genuinely half believe they fought in the war, such is the power of the narrative around this.

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

And the triple lock is totally unaffordable. Sad but an economic fact.

Our electoral system begs to differ.

It should be income tax and inheritance tax. NI and VAT are taxes that hit the poor harder than the wealthy. And definitely try and find a way to hit people who move assets around to try and avoid paying for care.

YANBU

If I actually thought the money would be ring fenced and go where it is needed then yes I'd be willing.

Instead it's just another way for them to funnel money to themselves. It wont make a difference, and there will be a lot of richer people due to this.

@shouldbeworkingmore

Where do you think the money should come from then ?

everyone

The only way to target 'everyone' would be to increase VAT, can you imagine the outcry then!

God I wish this was even a thing. It would solve so many problems further down the line. But, as you say, tumbleweed…

It's better for society as you say. It's long term thinking though which gov doesn't like.

@TempsPerdu

The narrative that the older generation fought in the war

I think my Boomer parents (both born in 1947) genuinely half believe they fought in the war, such is the power of the narrative around this.

My parents were/are 10 and 15 years older than that and were only school kids when the war ended

But as I say, we - as a society - aren't very discriminating when it comes to facts and figures when you have da feelz to contend with.

So what if council tax is high and only one person lives in the property. Perhaps they are living in too big a property for them and ought to downsize abd free up Lily h needed housing stock for families? Too many oldies rattling around in big houses where I live.

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

So what if council tax is high and only one person lives in the property. Perhaps they are living in too big a property for them and ought to downsize abd free up Lily h needed housing stock for families? Too many oldies rattling around in big houses where I live.

Another vote for a poll tax ?

The people needing the care paid all their working lives and that paid for the care of those who needed it during that time.

Exactly. There are some really selfish responses on this thread. If we want better social care (and everybody should) then we need to pay for it - same as everything else.

aren't very discriminating when it comes to facts and figures when you have da feelz to contend with.

True dat!

Increasing VAT does disproportionately hit the poor.

I’m happy to pay more to ensure our elderly generation is cared for.

Adding it to council tax would target elderly couples in large houses they own free and clear of mortgages.

I have totally no problem with hitting pensioners in expensive houses with council tax. Downsize.

It's long term thinking though which gov doesn't like

Quite; government thinks only of the next opinion poll, or at a stretch the next election if it's quote soon

Someone once said "A politician thinks of the next election, a statesman of the next generation" - and they were right