To think the proposed NI increases for social care are unfair?

[shouldbeworkingmore]

I recognise that social care needs funding but think that this proposal unfairly targets the younger generations. Plus we already have income taxes by stealth as the thresh holds have been frozen & wage stagnation is likely to continue for the next decade.

I also think that if you have money, you will still pay towards your care, to get into a care home of your choice, with better facilities. Round us, cafe home costs vary from £600 pw, to over £1,000 pw. Which ones do you think will be fully funded!

Pensioners have had nowt, no extra pension, and if you have savings, interest rates have been very low for over a decade, which helps younger people with lower mortgages, but penalised older people who have saved for their future.

I think many younger people would prefer higher interest rates so at least they could save for a deposit. Lower interest rates have just made property more expensive.

I was only in the position to start saving properly for a home in my late 20s, I have never had the opportunity to actually make money on savings as interest rates have been low for years.

@garannenee

There are plenty of pensioners in poverty. Whether you know any or not depends on who you know and where you live.

Of course poor pensioners exist but statistically many are better off than younger working people.

So higher income tax and/or NI - but with an increased income threshold for liability - means all those who can afford to pay (whatever their age) will pay, whilst those struggling won't.

Increased tax burden should fall on those more able to pay. It should go by income, as opposed to age.

Well then that's the same for younger generations too.

Not when you factor in increases & a higher state pension age & prescription ages increasing.
When was the 35 years of contributions introduced in order to qualify for the pension?

@Tealightsandd

Well then that's the same for younger generations too.

The whole point is that they're the ones who are going to be taxed more to fund the older generation.

And the younger generation might well find the state pension is means tested when they get to the (ever increasing) age that they can finally claim it.

But that's the point, National Insurance is not paid on all income. Not on dividends & rent etc. If you are state pension age now but working you don't pay NI. And as mentioned upthread someone who earns a lot will pay a lot less NI than on someone with a lower salary due to the tax structure.

[quote CBUK2K2]@Tealightsandd So we're going to tax the over 40's more to pay for the care of the elderly? How is this going to help them ever own a home.

My mother in law is a good example, she is in her mid 70's, worked 2 days a week in retail, rarely if ever qualified to pay income tax due to earnings, she now gets more in state pension than she did as an employed person and gets all her medical needs met by the NHS.

A significant number of women in this age group also worked part time or didn't work at all.[/quote]
I thought you said your MIL never worked again after having her son? Perhaps I confused you with another poster. I'm surprised your MIL gets full state pension. Most women of your MIL and the other poster's MIL generation receive reduced or low pensions.

Where did I say tax the over 40s?

I advocate taxing by ability to pay - by income - regardless of age.

I don't expect to see my state pension at 68, I'm sure it will move out. I also don't expect a free at the point of care NHS in 20 years. So I'm not sure how you can persuade younger people to pay more into a system that they are unlikely to benefit from?

garannenee

I don't expect to see my state pension at 68, I'm sure it will move out. I also don't expect a free at the point of care NHS in 20 years. So I'm not sure how you can persuade younger people to pay more into a system that they are unlikely to benefit from?“

This is a scary prospect but I think you may be right.

@garannenee

But that's the point, National Insurance is not paid on all income. Not on dividends & rent etc. If you are state pension age now but working you don't pay NI. And as mentioned upthread someone who earns a lot will pay a lot less NI than on someone with a lower salary due to the tax structure.

So let's increase income tax instead (or as well) but with an higher income liability threshold to protect people struggling to pay for the essentials. Want good public services? We need to pay for them. Germany has a very good healthcare system. They pay higher taxes for it but it's worth it.

Like I said upthread, there's also the smoking approach. Shorter life expectancy on average (so reduced care and pension costs) plus lots of tax revenue.

I'm hoping I'm wrong but the NHS is at breaking point now. Realistically there will be even less young people when i'm 65 as the birth rate is now so low & we aren't so fond of the immigrants so I'm worried to be honest.

@Tealightsandd income is much fairer but that's not what the Tories are proposing.

I also like the charge idea upthread as frankly the deficit is so bloody big we are going to need trillions.

@PattyPan

Yanbu, the burden should fall more on older than younger people. I already have to pay an effective extra 15% tax in the form of student loan repayments that older people never had to.

Your choice to have further education. Nobody forced you. You could have got a job like many others do.

I'm in my early 30's ....I forsee life as follows. Paying increasing amounts of tax and NI all my life, whilst my pension age keeps creeping up.

The NHS will change, meaning I may not be able to afford hospital treatment in my latter years. Birth rates will continue to drop as people can't afford children.

I'm probably going to die before my state pension age, having worked every day of my life since the age of 17. Paying tax after tax after tax after tax. Forever!!!!

Wahoooo! Gotta love being a millennial 😂

Your choice to have further education. Nobody forced you. You could have got a job like many others do.

Except many jobs now require degrees 🙄

@DucksFlyTogether It's going to be Dickensian

@garannenee

Your choice to have further education. Nobody forced you. You could have got a job like many others do.

Except many jobs now require degrees 🙄

This.

The type of entry level job my parents’ generation got into in the 60s with A levels asked for a degree by the time mine graduated in the 90s. Now employers are increasingly asking for a Masters.

The degree / Masters isn’t actually needed, but employers won’t look at you without. So it’s not really that much of a choice.

@Tealightsandd Sorry, you're mixing me up with someone else.

She did actually work, just not in a very well paid role or very much. She gets a full state pension, so must have earned enough to qualify for this.

@Tealightsandd You made some comment about the fastest growing group of renters being those in their 40's. I can only assume this is because people who couldn't afford to buy homes in their 20's and 30's still cant afford to.

This just makes me want to curl up and not wake up tomorrow. We’re already crippled by tax we just can’t afford to pay any more, we really can’t.

Just popped back after a couple of hours of smoking and drinking - us community-minded people like to do our bit - and I've saved a bit of cake for later.

There are so many valid points to consider but blaming and getting all bitter and twisted about how 'others' have had it 'easier' really only serves to make the life we have less enjoyable.

It isn't any generation's fault that global economic circumstances favoured or penalized them and, not every member of every generation benefits or is held back by such generalistic views.

It is what it is right now, as I've pointed out upthread, the numbers of elderly requiring social care has significantly reduced due to Covid, the state retirement age is increasing and life-expectancy is decreasing.

So what it is right now is not how it will always be.

The degree / Masters isn’t actually needed, but employers won’t look at you without. So it’s not really that much of a choice.

Exactly, I don't need a degree to do my job but I wouldn't have got an interview without it as it was prerequisite

You made some comment about the fastest growing group of renters being those in their 40's. I can only assume this is because people who couldn't afford to buy homes in their 20's and 30's still cant afford to.

I don't know anyone who didn't buy with help eg gift or living at home to save. So I guess if you are not helped it's very hard.

It is what it is right now, as I've pointed out upthread, the numbers of elderly requiring social care has significantly reduced due to Covid, the state retirement age is increasing and life-expectancy is decreasing.

So what it is right now is not how it will always be.

What do you mean?

@averylongtimeago

You do know young people get older, don't you op? And that social care is not just for the elderly? How do you think social care should be funded? Only for those currently paying in? The basic state pension is a pittance: £179 per week. How much of that would you like to see deducted for social care? Pensioners who have other income taking them over the tax threshold are taxed just like everyone else and will have been paying NI all their working lives. The alternative to funding social care is either families picking up the tab or leaving the vulnerable to not cope and die.

£179 a week is the maximum most people qualify for. Many get way below that- because of how many years NI they paid. You need to pay 10 years NI to qualify for any state pension and 35 years to qualify for the £179.00. Many people, particularly women do not qualify for the full amount. My MIL does not because she had time out when DH and SIL were small. I won't because I have done the same with our DC. Neither of us will be on the breadline but many pensioners are. My aunt is 90 and recently widowed. She does not own a house. If it was not for the fact that she gets extra benefits due to her disabilities, her widows state pension would just cover her basic bills. She pays 11.50 for a half an hour of a carer to come in 7 days a week to help her get up, washed, dressed and make her breakfast. - that is about £80 a week. She will need additional visits soon- probably at bedtime which will double that cost. It will be £650 a month for an hour a day of someone popping in- no housework just helping her up, get dressed making her a slice of toast and a cup of tea. The agency charges £23 an hour. The carer gets about £9.50 an hour but only for the time she is with the person, not for her travel between people. So if she spends 30 minutes with my aunt and it takes her 30 minutes to walk to her next visit she earns about £4.90 that hour. Social care should not be farmed out to private companies- no one should make profit from public monies/elderly people's savings given to look after vulnerable people - it should be spent on the care, not siphoned off the top as profit.