To think the proposed NI increases for social care are unfair?

[shouldbeworkingmore]

I recognise that social care needs funding but think that this proposal unfairly targets the younger generations. Plus we already have income taxes by stealth as the thresh holds have been frozen & wage stagnation is likely to continue for the next decade.

@Wandawide

Please remember that those houses which will be now be included for Inheritance Tax were paid for out of TAXED earnings. As we did. Our investments and our little inheritances from our parents were also accrued from AFTER tax income. Double taxation seems like the result of the politics of envy, that is the Labour Party policy.

What nonsense. Most of our money’s taxed several times. When we buy petrol it’s paid for from taxed income and then we pay VAT and fuel tax. We pay VAT on almost everything except food. The country would be bankrupt if you could only tax every £ once.

I think it's quite clear from this thread with people moaning about council tax, income tax, ni, inheritance tax, pension contributions..) that whoever has to pay more whether it's the rich, the poor, the young or the old it's going to be "unfair" to a proportion of society, and that's why we're currently in a position why we can't care for our elderly as people are just too self centred.

I'm also not convinced by the cap. That's my sister's whole house and 20% of mine. Why exactly should my kids still get a massive inheritance and hers nothing if we need years of care?
It’s unfair to have the same cap across the country when houses are worth far more in some areas. A cap of 50% of the house value would be more fair.

There is a very, very easy way to make this proposed tax much fairer though - put it on income tax not NI. The only reason I can see that government don’t want to do that is that it will irritate their core vote.

It's just another example of the inter-generational unfairness in the system. It would be much better to have a small increase in income tax that is borne by all generations. The particular unfairness here though is that the generation who currently need care are specifically exempted from paying for it via the NI increase. If the NI increase was balanced by the abolition of the triple lock and cuts in the benefits of higher rate taxpayer pensioners it would start to look a bit fairer - eg take away their winter fuel allowance and free bus pass/TV licences etc.
A further possibility would be to charge tax on the proceeds of house sales that aren't reinvested in a new principal residence but there is already a problem with older adults not downsizing and therefore cutting off a lot of the supply for family sized homes.

At the moment it is all very "them and us".

Is anyone really going to notice a 1.25% increase in NI contributions? Seems a very hysterical reaction. 1.25% increase for better care for our elderly which includes us when we need it seems a good deal to me.

eg take away their winter fuel allowance and free bus pass/TV licences etc

Means testing the winter fuel allowance would cost more than it saved, free TV licenses have already gone and bus passes cost fuck all outside cities because there’s no bus service. Any more fantastic ideas?

@londonmummy1966

It's just another example of the inter-generational unfairness in the system. It would be much better to have a small increase in income tax that is borne by all generations. The particular unfairness here though is that the generation who currently need care are specifically exempted from paying for it via the NI increase. If the NI increase was balanced by the abolition of the triple lock and cuts in the benefits of higher rate taxpayer pensioners it would start to look a bit fairer - eg take away their winter fuel allowance and free bus pass/TV licences etc. A further possibility would be to charge tax on the proceeds of house sales that aren't reinvested in a new principal residence but there is already a problem with older adults not downsizing and therefore cutting off a lot of the supply for family sized homes.

At the moment it is all very "them and us".

How would taking away winter fuel allowance and free bus passes help the issue which is social care of our elderly?

I don't understand this 'fair' vs 'unfair' thing. It's so mean and petty.

I'm glad to live in a society where pensioners are entitled to a few perks, and giving perks to all is the most 'fair' way of doing it.

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

There is a very, very easy way to make this proposed tax much fairer though - put it on income tax not NI. The only reason I can see that government don’t want to do that is that it will irritate their core vote.

Exactly so - and it’s not just wealthy pensioners, but those who derive income from share dividends and therefore dodge NI altogether.

Exactly so - and it’s not just wealthy pensioners, but those who derive income from share dividends and therefore dodge NI altogether.

Precisely

User1497207191 I worked in one of the HMRC offices that we were assured was owned by HMRC when we moved in that we later found out was owned by an offshore company in the Cayman Islands, I wouldn't be surprised if many more Crown properties are in the same boat.

@Blossomtoes

eg take away their winter fuel allowance and free bus pass/TV licences etc

Means testing the winter fuel allowance would cost more than it saved, free TV licenses have already gone and bus passes cost fuck all outside cities because there’s no bus service. Any more fantastic ideas?

Exactly these ideas about “means testing” stuff are always trotted out by people who haven’t really thought about it properly.

@ExConstance

I work in care, it needs a total reorganisation, not just a bit of extra funding. Unless they change the whole system then the money will make no difference. Some of it really should be put into helping people avoid needing care in the first place, health education, exercise such as Tai Chi etc. being available free of charge and second nature to participate in. Why should the carers who work for my organisation, who earn little enough to begin with, pay extra out of their wages to fund care when it is to preserve the houses of those older people who have been able to afford to buy them so that they can pass the money down to their children who will probably already be relatively well off? I'm afraid it is the Tory government once again helping preserve the assets of the already wealthy at the expense of those who are younger and poorer.

This absolutely.

Is anyone really going to notice a 1.25% increase in NI contributions? Seems a very hysterical reaction.

I don't think anyone has been hysterical, although there have been questions why only those who pay NI should pay it. Why do you think people who earn money from dividends or work after state pension age shouldn't contribute?

People will definitely notice

"For someone on average earnings of £29,536 a year, a 1% increase in national insurance would cost them £199.68 annually."

That's not insignificant

@shouldbeworkingmore

Is anyone really going to notice a 1.25% increase in NI contributions? Seems a very hysterical reaction.

I don't think anyone has been hysterical, although there have been questions why only those who pay NI should pay it. Why do you think people who earn money from dividends or work after state pension age shouldn't contribute?

People will definitely notice

"For someone on average earnings of £29,536 a year, a 1% increase in national insurance would cost them £199.68 annually."

That's not insignificant

Nobody wants to pay for it. The older generation (and let's face it, their children) don't want to use their savings or sell their house/assets to pay for it. Oh no can't be reducing the potential inheritance.

The working population don't want to pay for it... There is no solution that will make everybody happy if it involves paying more money out. If income tax had been the proposed suggestion, people would be moaning just as much about that.

So, its what about 16 quid a month extra NI contributions for those on around 30k a year, and for those on the lowest incomes less than a tenner a month... a few quid a week for social care.

@JaneKing75

Wages have not stagnated at all. I've had a £12500 pay rise since December - by moving jobs. People in IT are demanding and receiving 25%-30% rises to keep up with food inflation. Of course the tax brackets won't move so most of us will be in the 40% tax bracket by Christmas at this rate !

You are joking?

Not in other sectors

@JaneKing75

I do think downsizing needs encouraging via taxation, lots of widows by us staring out the window all day, not knowing what day it is whilst their money goes on cleaners, gardeners, maintenance companies for their 5 bedroomed detached houses in the catchment areas for great schools. It's not right whilst children are growing up in houses you couldn't swing a cat in.

But they probably can't afford the houses. I can't afford my dms house

but why do you think only those who pay NI should fund it @icelolly12?

So, its what about 16 quid a month extra NI contributions for those on around 30k a year, and for those on the lowest incomes less than a tenner a month... a few quid a week for social care.

I think those on low incomes will miss it, every penny counts.
Plus the money won't even be enough to sort social care.

@shouldbeworkingmore

but why do you think only those who pay NI should fund it *@icelolly12*?

I don't. I'm just making the point that whatever method they used people would complain. There is no 'fair' system. Do you think people don't get out of paying tax via various loopholes?!

I'm just bemused by the "it's not fair" - it feels like being back at primary school.

It’s really fucking unfair for low income workers who will never be able to own a home to pay more tax so rich old people don’t have to sell their houses to pay for the care they need.

I don't disagree that some group will complain no matter who you target. I just don't think it's right to only target those who pay NI.

I'm just bemused by the "it's not fair" - it feels like being back at primary school.

What language do you prefer? I personally don't think it's a good thing to encourage more polarisation in society.

There is no 'fair' system

There are fairer ones though

@shouldbeworkingmore

There is no 'fair' system

There are fairer ones though

What would you do?

@shouldbeworkingmore. "To 'only' target those who pay NI... "

Well that's basically the entire working population; hardly a segment of discriminated minorities.

Hopefully we'll all ultimately benefit from improved adult social care, whether for ourselves or our families. I won't hold my breath though.