To think the proposed NI increases for social care are unfair?

[shouldbeworkingmore]

I recognise that social care needs funding but think that this proposal unfairly targets the younger generations. Plus we already have income taxes by stealth as the thresh holds have been frozen & wage stagnation is likely to continue for the next decade.

Thanks onlyfools!

@princeofpersian

And again, nobody asks why this is not an issue in other countries like France, Italy and Spain. The reason: there families care for each other. Hard working immigrants to the UK are sick and tired of paying to subsidise the dysfunctional family arrangements of the English.

That's a load of bollocks - have you even been to France? Do you know what a maison de retraite is?

It's the available, existing method.

Fairer would mean a root and branch restructuring of all benefits and a radical change to the British mindset towards those in receipt of them.

Is it the Danish system that accepts a sizeable minority of the population won't be able to work so ensures a basic living standard for the non working, housing etc?

We would need something similar, and less of The Sun mentality, to do anything other than increase the existing tax levy.

So it isn't my preferred option. It's just an obvious one that can be done with little additional cost, bureaucratic costs, to the tax payer.

Princeofpersian is no doubt providing care from under a bridge somewhere.

@Marieg10

So currently my son is working and is getting taxed as follows: 20% tax 12% insurance 9% pension 9% student loan repayment

So after his tax free allowance, he is paying a total of 50% in tax or pension. Why on earth should that increase to 51% with an increase in NI. Taxation is already ridiculous and at highest historic levels

What is his effective rate of taxation though?

Also his pension contributions are not a tax, they are saving for his retirement, he can opt out if he wishes and his student load repayments are because he made a choice to go to university (as did I).

So to answer the question, these are the amounts.
Gross - Net - Effective Rate of taxation % - Net of deductions

£25k - £20,663 - 8% - £18,864 - (SL would never be repaid)
£50k - £37,663 - 24% - £31,956 - (SL would be repaid in 26 years)
£75k - £52,192 - 30.4% - £43,785 (SL would be repaid in 12 years)
£100k - £33,307 - 33.3% - £54,685 (SL would be repaid in 7.5 years)

Also, all those options would result in a considerable pension upon retirement, due to the power of compound interest and long term growth.

Another English person who has taken a lot more out of the system than they've put in, and who is happy to have others forced to subsidise them.

At 50 my dad started getting ill, he has a progressive degenerative illness that is genetic, he did nothing to cause any of it. He has been ill for 15 years and is now in a care home, he has undoubtedly cost more than he’s put in, not through intent but bad luck, and no doubt would rather be still healthy, working and paying into the pot rather than immobile and unable to express his wishes at the grand old age of 65. Meanwhile people make lifestyle choices that compromise their health and are successfully treated on the NHS fully funded by tax and that is not a problem to you. The complacency of the lucky eh?

@ButteringMyArse

Princeofpersian is no doubt providing care from under a bridge somewhere.

Indeed - I bet they aren't even an "immigrant worker" either.

user I can't get excited about well off pensioners. That's reducing taxes to a more personal level. And many pensioners, contrary to the usual MN trope, are barely managing.

And it would be peanuts when compared to the tax breaks many corporations take advantage of.

I'd rather make money making monoliths pay more of their fair dues than chase down individuals!

TBF student loan repayments are also because of having been born at a particular time. People making them may have chosen to go to uni (in a society where you increasingly need a degree to be allowed to wipe your own arse) but they didn't choose to be unable to go at a time when it was free. It's about age as much as choices.

Why do so many English have dementia? Cannabis use, lack of intellectual stimulation, lack of regular exercise, smoking and unhealthy lifestyle. We know what the risk factors are for dementia

None of those applied to my mother. The biggest risk factors for dementia are living too long and having the wrong genes. I’m pretty sure I’ll have it if I live long enough and none of them apply to me either.

We’re comfortably off and we’re also comfortable with the current system whereby if we need residential care we pay for it ourselves. Our kids don’t need our money so it doesn’t matter if there’s no inheritance. Self funders already subsidise council funded care home residents.

Social care is given to the young as well isnt it. Dont know why pensioners are getting a bashing.
Having said that I think that things like the heating allowance should be means tested.

@ Mirrorxx

It shouldn’t be additional NI as retired people don’t pay NI. So yes it is once again the young having to pay

Older people have already paid for their pensions via 40+ years of taxes and work in the community. Older pensioners lived through the austerity of the 1950s with no central heating, outside toilets and queuing for food!

Show a bit of gratitude.

I think people over pension age should pay NI. And that money should be ringfenced towards social care.

I don't disagree with raising NI for people under pension age and also ring fencing it but not without addressing the pension age anomaly.

And yes private sector should be providing social care. They page wages of a pittance abs charge extortionately and put profit before care ( as all private companies will do). So social care needs to be properly taken over by the NHS - obviously gradually. Leaving the private sector outside the NHS provision so if people want to pay for a gold plates service then they can - but those people don't get the state help. Like private healthcare - fine to pay for it if you want but you can't get a discount on your NI if you choose to use it.

Why do so many English have dementia? Cannabis use, lack of intellectual stimulation, lack of regular exercise, smoking and unhealthy lifestyle. We know what the risk factors are for dementia

My dad hated drugs and cycled everywhere. Genetics. That is all.

@thereisonlyoneofme

Social care is given to the young as well isnt it. Dont know why pensioners are getting a bashing. Having said that I think that things like the heating allowance should be means tested.

It is, but the elderly are the group most likely to need it and they're also the group being exempted from having to pay towards the clearly increased costs we as a society need to fund because of the greater need for care. So obviously that grates. Not to say everything said about pensioners in this thread has been justifiable either, but there's absolutely no doubt where most of the social care bill comes from.

@thereisonlyoneofme

Social care is given to the young as well isnt it. Dont know why pensioners are getting a bashing. Having said that I think that things like the heating allowance should be means tested.

Pensioners always get a bashing on MN.

@memberofthewedding

@ Mirrorxx

It shouldn’t be additional NI as retired people don’t pay NI. So yes it is once again the young having to pay

Older people have already paid for their pensions via 40+ years of taxes and work in the community. Older pensioners lived through the austerity of the 1950s with no central heating, outside toilets and queuing for food!

Show a bit of gratitude.

You say that "Older people have already paid for their pensions via 40+ years of taxes". Most people never pay enough tax to be a net contributor in any one year, let alone over their lifetime. 65% of people arrive at pensionable age having cost the state more than they put in.

Older people lived through houses costing twice the average salary, young people are facing houses costing 4-5 times the average annual salary. Having spend huge past of the last eighteen months locked up to protect the elderly.

Show a bit of perspective.

It’s totally unfair. Older people with assets should not have the working population fund their care while their own children inherit houses which have gone up in value. This isn’t essentially theft from others to line your children’s pockets with inheritance.

Older people have already paid for their pensions via 40+ years of taxes and work in the community.

That is not how it works, The working population is paying for the pensions of the retired at the moment. The younger generation will pay for ours. But sooner or later, the amount we pay into pensions is not going to be enough for all those that have retired.

When that happens those that are going to retire won't have anything, other than the work pensions.

@notangelinajolie

I think if we want to provide good social care it is the price we must pay.

Who is the royal ‘we’? If you want to pay for people who are then leaving their assets to their own children, you are welcome to do so.

65% of people arrive at pensionable age having cost the state more than they put in

Is there any proof of that? Like, you know, evidence based statistics? Because it seems pretty unlikely to me for anyone who worked for 40-50 years in good health.

@TractorAndHeadphones

Also *@Gimlisaxe* (great username btw) I agree with you! Constantly asking for more money when you don’t have more people being able to pay and more people needing it will result in a collapse. As the latter outpaces the former. A big levelling is needed rather than squeezing a bit of spare change from workers

I agree, I think a massive overhaul (of basically everything) is what is needed.

I think the government needs to be very clear where money is going, if we put in £50 million, where is that going, who is being spent on, because as it stands, if this government tells me with this idea we are going to get an extra £50 million my first thought is going to be and whose pocket is it going to line.

figures made up

Social care is given to the young as well isnt it. Dont know why pensioners are getting a bashing

It’s the combination of the fact that older people are more likely to need care, and the fact that it seems to be beyond the pale to suggest that they might need to contribute towards it. Also the prioritising of this one (admittedly important) issue over equally important ones that affect younger people.

Additionally there are always cries of ‘ageism’ on these kinds of threads, but as much as I dislike derogatory terms such as ‘oldies’ as much as the next person, it only ever seems to apply one way. Plenty of young person-bashing and even child-bashing on MN too, especially during the pandemic, which goes largely ignored. Numerous Covid posts with phrases like ‘Kids are resilient’; ‘They’ll get used to it’; ‘They just need to toughen up and adapt’ and of course the inevitable ‘snowflake’ put-down - substitute kids for old people and the ‘ageism’ would be called out immediately.