To think the proposed NI increases for social care are unfair?

[shouldbeworkingmore]

I recognise that social care needs funding but think that this proposal unfairly targets the younger generations. Plus we already have income taxes by stealth as the thresh holds have been frozen & wage stagnation is likely to continue for the next decade.

@CoronaPeroni "currently on no income at all", "I'm 65 and a socialist through and through." Well, that figures. Another English person who has taken a lot more out of the system than they've put in, and who is happy to have others forced to subsidise them.

@Marieg10

So currently my son is working and is getting taxed as follows: 20% tax 12% insurance 9% pension 9% student loan repayment

So after his tax free allowance, he is paying a total of 50% in tax or pension. Why on earth should that increase to 51% with an increase in NI. Taxation is already ridiculous and at highest historic levels

Pension isn't a tax. It is laudable that he's paying that much, but that is his choice entirely. Pension contributions are also not subject to tax, so your figures are off as is the contention that "Taxation is already ridiculous and at highest historic levels".

Before the government start making plans to pump more money into the system, maybe they should relook at where some of this money is going to. While many care homes are run well, there are many, mainly owned by big business that make massive profits off the back of cost-cutting and running on the bare bones of what they can get away with.

I think this is a smokescreen to detract from the fact that Brexit and the 'no jab no job' policy has and will continue to have a massive impact on social care.

[quote princeofpersian]@CoronaPeroni "currently on no income at all", "I'm 65 and a socialist through and through." Well, that figures. Another English person who has taken a lot more out of the system than they've put in, and who is happy to have others forced to subsidise them.[/quote]
Is racism allowed on here if it's directed (along with ageism) at "the English" ? I find your racism and ageism offensive.

And again, nobody asks why this is not an issue in other countries like France, Italy and Spain. The reason: there families care for each other. Hard working immigrants to the UK are sick and tired of paying to subsidise the dysfunctional family arrangements of the English.

@PearlclutchersInc

* Where do you think the money should come from then ?

everyone*

Everyone who has an income and pays NI will be hit by it.

But what about those with similar incomes exempt from NIC who'll not pay a bean more than they do now?

If I had 1 iota of guarantee that this would actually be spent on improving social care then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

We pay more and more each year for less and less.
Where is the money going?
Not on providing any type of service for anyone.

@princeofpersian

A lot of people who are taking and have taken out of the pot more than they put in, saying how those who are already funding their lifestyle choices should pay more money.

Don't talk to me about how the Tories keep taxes low. The Tories have piled tax increase after tax increase on working people while never taxing unearned wealth. NI is not paid on rental income or dividend income, only on income from work. So the rentier class will not pay a penny of the NI increase, only those who actually generate economic growth. It's sickening. People should not tolerate this.

It's not party political. Blair/Brown had 13 years in power, but did bugger all to target "unearned" income. All they did was increase NIC on workers, twice!

Why on earth do so many 'younger' people think pensioners are all on fat pensions and live in huge mansions? Some do certainly, but the vast majority don't.

@poorbuthappy

If I had 1 iota of guarantee that this would actually be spent on improving social care then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

We pay more and more each year for less and less.
Where is the money going?
Not on providing any type of service for anyone.

Totally agree.

This is a stealth tax to pay back the COVID debts.

Maybe they would be better chasing criminal proceedings and proceeds of crime powers enhanced to take the scum bags who abuses the SEISS grants and furlough.

Billions of pounds fraduently claimed there

@leakymcleakleak

Decent social care means younger people aren't facing a lottery about whether their loved ones need care and whether that means they have to give up their lives to provide it. All social security type interventions benefit all of society because communities have different generations - if you've ever lived anywhere with almost no social services, you'd know about it. Families have to stay in hospitals 24/7 when loved ones are there, providing food and basic toileting and other care. If someone becomes disabled or unable to work, extended family - usually the younger members - are expected to step up financially and practically.

Trust me, a small increase from the deductions in your wages and a society where people are treated well is well worth it, the problem is historically states like the UK haven't got the balance right. But the so-called high tax, high social services states have very few younger people complaining about what they're contributing to social care which should tell you something.

This........perfectly expressed.

Retired people are the political power base of the Conservative Party. It’s naive to expect them to clobber their own voters to pay for social care, so of course the young, who don’t vote Tory, will be made to pay for it.

@princeofpersian

"I find your racism and ageism offensive."

But it's not ageism to have the under 65s pay a tax that the over 65s don't pay. As my mother always said, never underestimate the hypocrisy of the English.

More racism, seemingly taught by your mother.

We pay more and more each year for less and less.
Where is the money going?

On admin in the public centre (including the civil service).

public sector

@catinthewindow

Those over retirement age who are working don’t have to pay NI. That would seem like a good place to start at least? It’s always seemed unfair that they can be on very good salaries and for some reason no longer have to pay NI?

Usually those still working past retirement age are doing so because they need the money not for fun.

@DynamoKev everything about her figures is wrong. It’ll be closer to 26% effective tax.

I think leaving aside all the economic arguments and quibbles over where exactly the funding should come from, the nub of it for me is the inequity. Social care should be better funded, and I broadly agree with some kind of tax rise to fund it (albeit ideally a fairer one than an NI rise).

But why the ongoing laser focus on social care and social care alone? What about the huge issues at the other end of the age spectrum? There’s another current thread running on children’s centres, many of which remain closed due to a combination of the pandemic and longer term funding cuts - no one seems that bothered about this. Early Years and mothers of young children are consistently overlooked. Schools have been massively underfunded for years, with teachers having to spend their own money on basic resources such as pencils and glue (I know; I’ve done it myself). The wait for child MH services is obscene. Over 4 million children were living in poverty in the U.K. pre-pandemic, with Marcus Rashford being pretty much the only reason our poorest kids were fed during lockdown. Why can’t we as a country show the same level of concern for our youngest citizens, just starting out in life, as we do for our eldest?

Unless, of course, it’s simply because they can’t vote…

@princeofpersian

Young hard working immigrants who care for their own parents are tired of being taxed to pay to care for elderly English whose own children don't care for them.

Wow you are really going for it. When you say immigrant you mean immigrant women I suppose, I don’t know how many immigrant men give up their careers to care for their parents and in-laws. But aside from the sexism, do you actually know what it entails to look after someone with dementia once they can no longer look after themselves? Families DO spend the majority of the illness caring for their families, until it gets to the point where it is too difficult, their loved one is too aggressive and violent to safely cope with, not to mention incontinent and eventually requiring on heavy machinery to keep mobile. Why do you insist on guilt tripping families and denying the professionalism needed to care for someone with very complex needs?

The stuff about pensioners being more deserving, all having paid in etc, would completely miss the point even if it were true. Which it's not.

For one thing, we don't have tax systems based on how hard a person has worked. Quite the opposite. Someone on NMW would have to work over twice as many hours as me to earn what I do, but the tax system wouldn't recognise this. Unearned income isn't taxed at a higher rate than earned income. Sometimes the opposite!

But also, even if every pensioner had contributed, however old a person is now and however much NI they may previously have paid, it wasn't enough for us to fund a suitable care system for an ageing population. This means the extra money to pay for one now is going to need to come from somewhere.

It's a fact that pensioners as a cohort are one of the groups with higher income and more assets. We simply don't have the luxury of allowing those of them with sufficient funds not to be included in the new plans to pay for care. The working age population can only be squeezed so far, regardless of what anyone thinks is ethically justifiable.

Not that I trust the Tories to actually funnel any proposed NI increase towards social care in the first place, but sooner or later we're going to have to do something.

@Jaxhog

We pay more and more each year for less and less. Where is the money going?

On admin in the public centre (including the civil service).

Into the pockets of Tories and their Sir Bufton Tufton mates who run private sector companies delivering public services, that's where.

@ButteringMyArse

The stuff about pensioners being more deserving, all having paid in etc, would completely miss the point even if it were true. Which it's not.

For one thing, we don't have tax systems based on how hard a person has worked. Quite the opposite. Someone on NMW would have to work over twice as many hours as me to earn what I do, but the tax system wouldn't recognise this. Unearned income isn't taxed at a higher rate than earned income. Sometimes the opposite!

But also, even if every pensioner had contributed, however old a person is now and however much NI they may previously have paid, it wasn't enough for us to fund a suitable care system for an ageing population. This means the extra money to pay for one now is going to need to come from somewhere.

It's a fact that pensioners as a cohort are one of the groups with higher income and more assets. We simply don't have the luxury of allowing those of them with sufficient funds not to be included in the new plans to pay for care. The working age population can only be squeezed so far, regardless of what anyone thinks is ethically justifiable.

Not that I trust the Tories to actually funnel any proposed NI increase towards social care in the first place, but sooner or later we're going to have to do something.

Perfectly summarised!!!

@TempsPerdu

I think leaving aside all the economic arguments and quibbles over where exactly the funding should come from, the nub of it for me is the inequity. Social care should be better funded, and I broadly agree with some kind of tax rise to fund it (albeit ideally a fairer one than an NI rise).

But why the ongoing laser focus on social care and social care alone? What about the huge issues at the other end of the age spectrum? There’s another current thread running on children’s centres, many of which remain closed due to a combination of the pandemic and longer term funding cuts - no one seems that bothered about this. Early Years and mothers of young children are consistently overlooked. Schools have been massively underfunded for years, with teachers having to spend their own money on basic resources such as pencils and glue (I know; I’ve done it myself). The wait for child MH services is obscene. Over 4 million children were living in poverty in the U.K. pre-pandemic, with Marcus Rashford being pretty much the only reason our poorest kids were fed during lockdown. Why can’t we as a country show the same level of concern for our youngest citizens, just starting out in life, as we do for our eldest?

Unless, of course, it’s simply because they can’t vote…

This is all true. We certainly do have a social care crisis, but it isn't the only one, and it's exceptionally telling that the one most likely to affect the core Tory vote is the one being prioritised here.

Yanbu. I would much rather it went on income tax than national insurance. It's just fairer. I'm also not convinced by the cap. That's my sister's whole house and 20% of mine. Why exactly should my kids still get a massive inheritance and hers nothing if we need years of care?