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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not want to pay this bill? Small business related.

124 replies

smallbizwoes · 02/09/2021 23:01

I really don’t know if IABU. I have had lots of good advice from Mumsnetters in the past, so thought I’d post the issue here and see what you guys think.

I have a small online business. A year or so ago, I met a soap manufacturer - also a small business - and asked her to make some custom soaps (Vanilla and Strawberry) for my business. She did, they were great, I paid the bill and took the soaps. All good. I then asked her to make another order, again I was very happy with what she’d made, took the soaps, paid promptly.

The third time, I asked for a new scent to be added to both custom soaps. I did not know this at the time, but the incorporation of the new scents seemed to be outside of the expertise of the soap maker. She said that she needed to buy in the new scents and I offered to pay a deposit. She said there was no need.

She made the soaps and I picked them up with the intention of paying the bill within the next week or so. However, when I got the soaps home, they seemed odd. A bit discoloured. Still never mind, I am sure if there was an issue the soap maker would have said. I assumed that they were still ‘curing’ and that they would be fine.

Within a few days of picking up the soaps, I experienced a family tragedy which meant that I had to travel overseas. I told the soap maker this and that I would deal with the invoice shortly. At this stage, I had every intention of paying the bill.

I was gone longer than I thought, to the point that I had to close down my business. To be honest, I completely forgot about the soaps as I had so much going on. When I returned home, I remembered the soaps and checked on them and they were terrible. The ‘Vanilla’ ones which were meant to be lemon-coloured were dark brown. The ‘Strawberry’ ones seemed to be covered in a weird mould. They had been stored in a climate controlled room, so it wasn’t anything that I had done. They were completely unfit for sale.

By this stage, I hadn’t heard from the soap maker and I assumed that she knew that the soaps hadn’t worked out as she would have kept samples. I did wonder why I hadn’t heard from her and thought maybe she was embarrassed by the soaps or didn’t want to work with me as my project was too difficult. To be honest, I didn’t think about it beyond that.

Anyway, I posted a general query on a public Facebook page. The soap maker added a post to mine, saying how she was ‘Most disappointed’. I contacted her immediately and she told me that unless I paid the bill, she would pass it onto debt collectors. I sent her a picture of the soaps and asked if she was aware of the problems but she didn’t respond to this. She followed up with 2 more emails saying that she expects full payment.

It is not an insignificant amount, it is £500. I know this isn’t her problem, but I had to close down my business and currently have no income.

I feel that because the bars were so terrible, I should not have to pay for them. Or at least I should only have to cover her costs. I just don’t know. What do you guys think? I want to be fair to her but equally I don’t want to lose £500 of money I don’t have for a product that I cannot sell.

OP posts:
Kithic · 03/09/2021 08:52

How long should soaps last?

Have they lasted that long?

If the answer is they should have lasted longer than they did, then you should return them, and not pay

iwannabelikeyouhoohoo · 03/09/2021 08:54

You posted in AIBU, got told you were and replied with lots of reasons why you weren’t. I never understand why people post here and then get offended by straight talking.

Yes, you stole the soap. What else do you call it when you accept a delivery and then don’t pay for it?

Mrgrinch · 03/09/2021 08:58

To be honest she can't ask for the money and the return of the product, it's one or the other.

Eddielzzard · 03/09/2021 09:04

I would return them. She can sell them if she thinks there's nothing wrong with them.

Yes, you should have paid long ago. But she should have also chased you for payment, and shouldn't expect full payment when the soaps are faulty.

Chalk this one up to experience - never accept goods that you're not 100% confident in. And always pay your invoices on time.

Warmduscher · 03/09/2021 09:10

HalzTangz

I have seen the picture, I see a brown soap that is perfectly sellable, I would buy it.
I see a pink soap with some bubbling (I don't see any mould). I would still buy this too.

Here you are, OP - you have a buyer!

Tallisimo · 03/09/2021 09:15

It may not be what you want to hear but you are liable. You ordered the goods and still haven’t paid for them, months later. I’m sorry about whatever happened in your family and that you had to close the business but none of that is down to the person you bought from.

LeafOfTruth · 03/09/2021 09:16

Stabilisers in cold process soap are very hit and miss and so it's not really entry level stuff to use one. It IS entry level to know that vanilla-based scents will do this to soap. Most entry level soap makers would just allow the discolouration to happen and accept it or even work with it to bring about a feature, such as use a gradiated amount of scent along the bar for an ombre type effect. It is entirely cosmetic so will not affect the function of the soap.

Stabilisers in melt & pour are much more reliable because, essentially, the product has already been made for you. You just melt and reset it into a shape/colour combo that you like.

The bubbling on the strawberry soap looks like glycerin to me (often indicative that they have too closely or tightly packed up/unable to 'breathe'). Again, just cosmetic; glycerin is highly moisturising so I always deliberately pick the glycerin-y ones of my own soaps to use.

Aprilx · 03/09/2021 09:17

You are not going to win this if she takes you to small claims or passes it on to debt collectors. You had the soaps and have raised no issue for months until you are finally asked for payment, when all of a sudden, oh they are faulty. Surely you can see that the law is not going to be on your side, which at the end of the day is all that matters.

DynamoKev · 03/09/2021 09:26

OP I notice you mention "fit for purpose" - that's an expression used in consumer law, which doesn't apply to business transactions. In business to business transactions it's generally assumed that each is in an equal bargaining position - and if you wished to avoid payment for goods you regarded as unfit, you'd have written that into the contract, probably with a return clause (and a time limit).
Since you don't seem to have done that, the general expectation would be that the contract should follow the previous practise - where she supplied you with products and you paid her.
I'd be annoyed if I was her - she's down on all her costs and hasn't even got the product to resell or recycle.

CandidaAlbicans2 · 03/09/2021 09:27

YANBU to not want to pay but I have no idea where you stand legally. Although I feel sorry for the soap maker and you, and agree with PPs that you can't use being overseas as a reason not to have paid her, please listen to @StraySoapmaker who raises lots of important points.

Does it say on the packaging what the shelf life is or how it should be stored? Only, if I bought a soap I'd expect it to still be as new even if it had been sat in the back of a drawer unless it specifically said otherwise. I have no idea how to treat them, how they age, etc otherwise.

category12 · 03/09/2021 09:28

You can't take delivery of goods, fail to pay for them and months later complain about their quality & say you're refusing to pay on that basis.

Life got in the way, and that's unfortunate for you, but it's entirely unreasonable to expect to be able to return them or not pay after that long.

Seagullsstopit · 03/09/2021 09:36

You really need to pay her.
You've left it an unacceptable amount of time to notify her of problems
YABVU

SurferRona · 03/09/2021 13:20

OP, is that ‘bubbling’ as per PP, or bacterial growth? Cos it REALLY looks like the latter. And dangerous if so. I’m pissed off to hear the maker intends to drop these for use by homeless people- what on earth have they done to deserve rubbish sub-par and probably harmful products? My foodbank wouldn’t let her over the threshold with these!!!

She’s a CF. Thanks god you didn’t sell to your customers, they would harmed trust in you and your business. Nice of you to offer cost, but I think she’s cheeky to expect that!

QuestionableMouse · 03/09/2021 13:24

I make soap on a small scale and some fragrances do discolour very badly. The soap is still safe to use. Vanilla and cinnamon are the worst for turning dark!

The mould could be a few things but I've never seen mould on soap.

Kithic · 03/09/2021 13:56

@smallbizwoes

She has also suggested I give the soaps back to her so that she can donate them to a homeless charity. I guess I'll be expected to pay the postage on that as well.
return them without payment
category12 · 03/09/2021 14:16

You simply don't get to keep things for months and then refuse to pay or return them as faulty.

There's a time limit and it's usually 30 days for shops and 14 for online, with 14 days time frame after that to return the items. Some retailers may be more generous. But it's simply unreasonable and cheeky to keep something without paying for ages and then moan it's not up to standard and you don't want it.

Too slow, too bad.

Kithic · 03/09/2021 15:00

@category12

You simply don't get to keep things for months and then refuse to pay or return them as faulty.

There's a time limit and it's usually 30 days for shops and 14 for online, with 14 days time frame after that to return the items. Some retailers may be more generous. But it's simply unreasonable and cheeky to keep something without paying for ages and then moan it's not up to standard and you don't want it.

Too slow, too bad.

If OP had sold them on, and they had been returned as faulty, she would have had to refund them and then claim back from the manufacturer.

Its only that step that was missed, from a business point of view.

The items were not fit for purpose as should have reasonably lasted longer than they did?

DontDrinkDontSmokeWhatDoIDo · 03/09/2021 15:24

They are awful, OP.

Yes, you've dealt with it badly.
However- she should have been in touch once payment due had passed too.

Take lots of photos. Keep one of each as proof, then send the rest back with proof of delivery and a letter saying these are faulty / not fit for resale and you can not pay for them.

Also include a note that had you sold them on, as intended, there could have been serious repercussions with the pink soap particularly.

category12 · 03/09/2021 15:32

If OP had sold them on, and they had been returned as faulty, she would have had to refund them and then claim back from the manufacturer.

Its only that step that was missed, from a business point of view.

The items were not fit for purpose as should have reasonably lasted longer than they did?

The main step that was missed was she hadn't paid for them in the first place! Hmm That's crucial, don't you think?

CharlotteRose90 · 03/09/2021 15:34

Do you still have the soaps? If you do I’d give them all back. She’s a cheeky sod and she knows it. Do not pay her

Kithic · 03/09/2021 15:42

@category12

If OP had sold them on, and they had been returned as faulty, she would have had to refund them and then claim back from the manufacturer.

Its only that step that was missed, from a business point of view.

The items were not fit for purpose as should have reasonably lasted longer than they did?

The main step that was missed was she hadn't paid for them in the first place! Hmm That's crucial, don't you think?

yes - ok!

That bit was unfortunate, but the seller would have to refund as not fit for purpose anyway

Cuddlyrottweiler · 03/09/2021 15:46

No I wouldn't pay for them. They're bad. Just send them back.

ManifestDestinee · 03/09/2021 15:52

@Cuddlyrottweiler

No I wouldn't pay for them. They're bad. Just send them back.
Only if you have a time machine and can go back to however many months ago when you could have done that. Since you don't have that, pay up.
ChequerBoard · 03/09/2021 16:09

Pay up and apologise.

Getting a reputation as a cheat and a bad payer is going to cost you much more than £500.

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