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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not want to pay this bill? Small business related.

124 replies

smallbizwoes · 02/09/2021 23:01

I really don’t know if IABU. I have had lots of good advice from Mumsnetters in the past, so thought I’d post the issue here and see what you guys think.

I have a small online business. A year or so ago, I met a soap manufacturer - also a small business - and asked her to make some custom soaps (Vanilla and Strawberry) for my business. She did, they were great, I paid the bill and took the soaps. All good. I then asked her to make another order, again I was very happy with what she’d made, took the soaps, paid promptly.

The third time, I asked for a new scent to be added to both custom soaps. I did not know this at the time, but the incorporation of the new scents seemed to be outside of the expertise of the soap maker. She said that she needed to buy in the new scents and I offered to pay a deposit. She said there was no need.

She made the soaps and I picked them up with the intention of paying the bill within the next week or so. However, when I got the soaps home, they seemed odd. A bit discoloured. Still never mind, I am sure if there was an issue the soap maker would have said. I assumed that they were still ‘curing’ and that they would be fine.

Within a few days of picking up the soaps, I experienced a family tragedy which meant that I had to travel overseas. I told the soap maker this and that I would deal with the invoice shortly. At this stage, I had every intention of paying the bill.

I was gone longer than I thought, to the point that I had to close down my business. To be honest, I completely forgot about the soaps as I had so much going on. When I returned home, I remembered the soaps and checked on them and they were terrible. The ‘Vanilla’ ones which were meant to be lemon-coloured were dark brown. The ‘Strawberry’ ones seemed to be covered in a weird mould. They had been stored in a climate controlled room, so it wasn’t anything that I had done. They were completely unfit for sale.

By this stage, I hadn’t heard from the soap maker and I assumed that she knew that the soaps hadn’t worked out as she would have kept samples. I did wonder why I hadn’t heard from her and thought maybe she was embarrassed by the soaps or didn’t want to work with me as my project was too difficult. To be honest, I didn’t think about it beyond that.

Anyway, I posted a general query on a public Facebook page. The soap maker added a post to mine, saying how she was ‘Most disappointed’. I contacted her immediately and she told me that unless I paid the bill, she would pass it onto debt collectors. I sent her a picture of the soaps and asked if she was aware of the problems but she didn’t respond to this. She followed up with 2 more emails saying that she expects full payment.

It is not an insignificant amount, it is £500. I know this isn’t her problem, but I had to close down my business and currently have no income.

I feel that because the bars were so terrible, I should not have to pay for them. Or at least I should only have to cover her costs. I just don’t know. What do you guys think? I want to be fair to her but equally I don’t want to lose £500 of money I don’t have for a product that I cannot sell.

OP posts:
Hekatestorch · 02/09/2021 23:45

[quote smallbizwoes]@SylvanasWindrunner Neither really. To be honest, I hadn't thought about it much over the past few months. I did a couple of times wonder why I hadn't heard from her at all (not that it's her responsibility to chase me) and to be honest I thought that she'd realised the soaps were no good so had written them off.[/quote]
Or she felt uncomfortable chasing you.

ThisBeTheName · 02/09/2021 23:46

She did what you asked her to do. YABU.

smallbizwoes · 02/09/2021 23:48

She did what you asked her to do.

Well, not quite. I did not ask for brown and mouldy soaps.

OP posts:
ANameChangeAgain · 02/09/2021 23:49

You can't use family emergencies as an excuse not to pay or delay payment. You still have access to your bank account overseas.
I wonder if it depends on the professional level of her expertise? If you employed her services as a farmhouse kitchen type business, ie someone who could make soaps having a go from home, then you might struggle to get out of paying, especially if you specified the scents she should use. If however she sells herself as a specialist in soap making, then yes, she should have known better.

Toria84 · 02/09/2021 23:52

Firstly you should’ve raised the issue with her front the beginning.

Right at the start when you thought the soaps didn’t look quite right.

You contacted her to let her know about the family emergency and made a promise to pay, so you could’ve easily contacted her to let her know of your concerns.

You have now have no proof that the issues with the soap is actually down to the soap maker and not down to the way you have stored them.

If the soap maker takes you to a claims court it’s very likely she will win, since you raised no issues within a reasonable amount of time.

You owe her to money and if it goes to court you will owe her more to cover court costs too.

Was your business a limited company or were you a sole trader?

Sole traders have unlimited liability, there’s no legal difference between themselves and their business. If the business gets into debt, the business owner is personally liable.

ThisBeTheName · 02/09/2021 23:54

@smallbizwoes

She did what you asked her to do.

Well, not quite. I did not ask for brown and mouldy soaps.

She added the ingredient you asked her to.
smallbizwoes · 02/09/2021 23:54

You have now have no proof that the issues with the soap is actually down to the soap maker and not down to the way you have stored them.

It was due to the ingredients used, definitely. I have done some research since and when using a Vanilla scent, you also need to use a colour stabiliser. Apparently this is entry-level soap making. Maybe she just forgot? I guess we'll never know.

OP posts:
XelaM · 02/09/2021 23:59

Don't pay.

Hekatestorch · 03/09/2021 00:00

Did you ever contact her directly? After saying you would pay her?

smallbizwoes · 03/09/2021 00:01

She has also suggested I give the soaps back to her so that she can donate them to a homeless charity. I guess I'll be expected to pay the postage on that as well.

OP posts:
Lou98 · 03/09/2021 00:15

@smallbizwoes

You have now have no proof that the issues with the soap is actually down to the soap maker and not down to the way you have stored them.

It was due to the ingredients used, definitely. I have done some research since and when using a Vanilla scent, you also need to use a colour stabiliser. Apparently this is entry-level soap making. Maybe she just forgot? I guess we'll never know.

You can't prove that though, she could have used that and it was a dodgy batch - that would be the supplier of the ingredients at fault. Or she may not have - either way you've left it too long to be able to prove that it was the ingredients as many posters have said.

You seem adamant you're in the right and not budging on that, why post in aibu?

As people have said, you'll most likely lose at small claims court as you never raised any issues in reasonable time. You'll then be liable for the £500 plus court costs.
If you decide not to pay, that's up to you but as it is so much and not just a couple of pounds, I suspect it isn't just empty threats and she probably will take it further

smallbizwoes · 03/09/2021 00:17

In case anybody is wondering what they look like, here's a photo.

To not want to pay this bill?  Small business related.
OP posts:
EllieBellend · 03/09/2021 00:21

Standard Vanilla fragrances do cause discolouration in soap, you can get special non-browning ones though. Don't know about the strawberry. I think I'd send them back and come to some sort of agreement over payment.

thefirstmrsrochester · 03/09/2021 00:27

Today 00:01 smallbizwoes

She has also suggested I give the soaps back to her so that she can donate them to a homeless charity. I guess I'll be expected to pay the postage on that as well.

If she’s wanting them back to donate on to charity then she surely isn’t expecting you to pay for the goods that she is asking you to send back?

To be honest, I’d pay to send the soaps back to her and be done with it.

LemonSwan · 03/09/2021 00:27

You have to look at this from the other businesses perspective.

You have not paid and had to go away for an 'emergency' for an extended period of time. To then return and never pay or chase up the issue.

If you had time to contact the soap maker then you had time to make a payment. Its 2021. Yes you might have left the invoice at home but you could have called and arranged for a new invoice to be emailed or checked the amount, and you could have accessed your banking online.

I am sorry but you sound like a scam buyer.

It might not be the case but its the way it looks.

thebeatingofthedrums · 03/09/2021 00:34

@smallbizwoes

She has also suggested I give the soaps back to her so that she can donate them to a homeless charity. I guess I'll be expected to pay the postage on that as well.
If you give the soaps back, is she willing to only charge you a token amount, rather than the full outstanding invoice?

You're at fault here for not dealing with it on a timely basis, and you don't want the soap. If she's willing to cut you a discount for returning the goods, I'd bite her hand off.

smallbizwoes · 03/09/2021 00:38

@thebeatingofthedrums No, she wants full payment. Have you seen the picture? I think she's got a nerve, tbh. They're not fit for purpose.

OP posts:
ThisBeTheName · 03/09/2021 00:45

[quote smallbizwoes]@thebeatingofthedrums No, she wants full payment. Have you seen the picture? I think she's got a nerve, tbh. They're not fit for purpose.[/quote]
She made what you asked her to make.

SD1978 · 03/09/2021 00:49

Sorry/ but you are being unreasonable. You never let her know there was an issue with the product, left the country and had no contact with her, then months later you don't want to pay. I understand that the product hasn't been up to standard. The time to deal with that was months ago. I'd be at least offering half

Bananarama21 · 03/09/2021 00:54

Yabu and you know it pay what you owe it takes 2 minutes to log online banking. You never had intentions of paying.

StraySoapmaker · 03/09/2021 00:57

Soapmaker here and contrary to what people are saying, you may not be being entirely unreasonable, though you haven't dealt with it well. I'd need a bit more info to give an opinion, though.
Is the soap safety assessed? Did she discuss this with you? Who paid?
Did she actually make it herself, or does she use a melt and pour base? There are a lot of people calling themselves soapmakers who actually aren't, they use pre-made bases and add colour and scent.
How long did she ask for to develop the soap?

StraySoapmaker · 03/09/2021 00:59

Is the humidity controlled in the storeroom as well as the temperature?
What are the soaps wrapped in?
Can you tell me what ingredients are listed on the wrapper?

Bananarama21 · 03/09/2021 01:01

New title of the thread the soap thief

0DimSumMum0 · 03/09/2021 01:02

I feel that you have a genuine case to be fair but as other posters have said you missed the window for raising your concerns and questioning the payment. Now it just seems like you are broke and making excuses. Paying in full is the right thing to do.

Dbank · 03/09/2021 01:05

When you say a business, were you running it as a sole trader or as a limited company, as this may make difference to your liabilities?