To not want to pay this bill? Small business related.

[smallbizwoes]

I really don’t know if IABU. I have had lots of good advice from Mumsnetters in the past, so thought I’d post the issue here and see what you guys think.

I have a small online business. A year or so ago, I met a soap manufacturer - also a small business - and asked her to make some custom soaps (Vanilla and Strawberry) for my business. She did, they were great, I paid the bill and took the soaps. All good. I then asked her to make another order, again I was very happy with what she’d made, took the soaps, paid promptly.

The third time, I asked for a new scent to be added to both custom soaps. I did not know this at the time, but the incorporation of the new scents seemed to be outside of the expertise of the soap maker. She said that she needed to buy in the new scents and I offered to pay a deposit. She said there was no need.

She made the soaps and I picked them up with the intention of paying the bill within the next week or so. However, when I got the soaps home, they seemed odd. A bit discoloured. Still never mind, I am sure if there was an issue the soap maker would have said. I assumed that they were still ‘curing’ and that they would be fine.

Within a few days of picking up the soaps, I experienced a family tragedy which meant that I had to travel overseas. I told the soap maker this and that I would deal with the invoice shortly. At this stage, I had every intention of paying the bill.

I was gone longer than I thought, to the point that I had to close down my business. To be honest, I completely forgot about the soaps as I had so much going on. When I returned home, I remembered the soaps and checked on them and they were terrible. The ‘Vanilla’ ones which were meant to be lemon-coloured were dark brown. The ‘Strawberry’ ones seemed to be covered in a weird mould. They had been stored in a climate controlled room, so it wasn’t anything that I had done. They were completely unfit for sale.

By this stage, I hadn’t heard from the soap maker and I assumed that she knew that the soaps hadn’t worked out as she would have kept samples. I did wonder why I hadn’t heard from her and thought maybe she was embarrassed by the soaps or didn’t want to work with me as my project was too difficult. To be honest, I didn’t think about it beyond that.

Anyway, I posted a general query on a public Facebook page. The soap maker added a post to mine, saying how she was ‘Most disappointed’. I contacted her immediately and she told me that unless I paid the bill, she would pass it onto debt collectors. I sent her a picture of the soaps and asked if she was aware of the problems but she didn’t respond to this. She followed up with 2 more emails saying that she expects full payment.

It is not an insignificant amount, it is £500. I know this isn’t her problem, but I had to close down my business and currently have no income.

I feel that because the bars were so terrible, I should not have to pay for them. Or at least I should only have to cover her costs. I just don’t know. What do you guys think? I want to be fair to her but equally I don’t want to lose £500 of money I don’t have for a product that I cannot sell.

Wow - this has to be a reverse. Of COURSE you should pay, and apologise heartily.

When you asked to add an extra ingredient did she say yes no problem or did she say to do that I need to make test and then send of for a cosmetic assessment which can take months and what she should have done.

To be fair to the OP she’s admitted she was in the wrong and will do as mumsnet suggests. That’s a fairly rare quality. And she gets my support for that!

I assume you have sent her the pictures and asked how she thinks you can sell these items? As they are not fit for retail sale she can collect them but that you won't be paying and that if she does want to go to small claims court you will be putting in a defence that the goods were incorrectly manufactured and unable to be sold on to the public. It is highly unlikely that she would go to the time and effort of pursuing this matter to court. A debt collector can merely ask for payment to which you make the same response. Despite what a pp says it makes no difference if you are a sole trader or a limited company, the reason for non payment and the defence to any legal claim remains the same. The product is shoddy and unable to be sold on to your customers .

The time lapse was unfortunate but it doesn't change the fact that the foods are unsellavke due a mistake she made making them.

I would actually contact the seller by phone, and explain the full situation to her, including you accepting that you should have raised the problem immediately. Then try to work out a compromise. She needs to accept that her product was not up to her usual standard.
Sorry you've been going through a tough time.

You have behaved badly. The two elements to this story are quality control and the other is your behaviour.
Realistically, you accepted the goods, had a family tragedy and then never contacted her again. She then sees you pop up on a Fb post. She’s quite right to contact you. What you should have done is contact her when closing down your business, tell her the items aren’t as ordered and what could you agree going forward.
You are moaning that you will struggle to pay. I’d imagine she may have struggled waiting on your payment. Not many small businesses would want to chase a debt of someone suffering a bereavement, particularly if they’d been a prompt payment before.
Pay her and apologise. Too late now to state the product is faulty.

The goods weren’t fit for purpose and the soap maker clearly hadn’t the skills she needed to fulfil the order.

A few months is nothing where soap is concerned and, while I agree the invoice should have been settled sooner, you’d very swiftly have found yourself in a position where the goods weren’t fit for sale and seeking a refund.

There is no way on earth I would pay the bill - return the goods so she is not out of pocket and let her try and sell them herself.

@thefirstmrsrochester

*Today 00:01 smallbizwoes*

She has also suggested I give the soaps back to her so that she can donate them to a homeless charity. I guess I'll be expected to pay the postage on that as well.

If she’s wanting them back to donate on to charity then she surely isn’t expecting you to pay for the goods that she is asking you to send back?

To be honest, I’d pay to send the soaps back to her and be done with it.

This

I should add - I am a small business owner / producer myself and so I am looking at this from the soap maker perspective, too. Why on Earth she’d want payment for something she has basically fouled up is beyond me.

So you’ve asked for opinions, but you’re still not going to pay your bill.

You didn’t raise an issue immediately, even though you say you weren’t happy. Had you not closed your business, you’d have sold them to customers, and there probably wouldn’t be an issue.

It’s a bit rich to say you didn’t think about it for months. I find it hard to believe as a small business that if YOU had a £500 bill outstanding you would have forgotten about it. Conveniently easy to forget when it’s you that owes the money

Just here to say the soaps don’t actually look as bad in the photo as in your description. They look exactly as I’d expect to buy from, say, a farmer’s market type event on a small, artisan, presumed-handmade stall.

I would see if you can come to a compromise. You should definitely have dealt with this at the time, business is business and whatever you have going on in your personal life shouldn’t affect you paying your bills or dealing with things like this

@itswonkylampshade

The goods weren’t fit for purpose and the soap maker clearly hadn’t the skills she needed to fulfil the order.

A few months is nothing where soap is concerned and, while I agree the invoice should have been settled sooner, you’d very swiftly have found yourself in a position where the goods weren’t fit for sale and seeking a refund.

There is no way on earth I would pay the bill - return the goods so she is not out of pocket and let her try and sell them herself.

This. If they are fit to be paid for, she can sell them to someone else. I'd tell her you'll make yourself available to her courier for collection but that's as far as you'll go.

You are so unreasonable with so many excuses it's unbelievable. You clearly went through a very difficult time, so it's understandable that you were not thinking clearly, but business is business.

You did raise you were not satisfied with the product from the start. You didn't give her a chance to rectify it. You didn't pay her right away nor at any time afterwards, which you could easily have done in 5 minutes wherever you were.

You failed to contact her when you had no more reason not to. You blame the soaps not being what you wanted when it could indeed be due to your lack of care, but are keen to find reasons to justify that there was a problem with manufacturing.

She has very good reasons to take you to court and I can't see you coming out of it successfully. Pay her what she is and always was due.

What the fuck, I quoted another post up thread. Is mn trailing that stupid thing where if you post again it tacks it on to your last post?

I think they have much more important things to fix and add in than that ffs 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

This. If they are fit to be paid for, she can sell them to someone else. I'd tell her you'll make yourself available to her courier for collection but that's as far as you'll go

Are you mad? They've been in OP's gaff for months and months, they could be unfit because she ruined them. The maker can't sell them,
OP ordered them and then ran off without paying. She owes, end of story.

@itswonkylampshade

The goods weren’t fit for purpose and the soap maker clearly hadn’t the skills she needed to fulfil the order.

A few months is nothing where soap is concerned and, while I agree the invoice should have been settled sooner, you’d very swiftly have found yourself in a position where the goods weren’t fit for sale and seeking a refund.

There is no way on earth I would pay the bill - return the goods so she is not out of pocket and let her try and sell them herself.

This what I was trying to quote.

That's what you did quote. And you are still entirely wrong.

You really need to pay her.

You can't just ignore and then decide not to pay.

It's quite a coincidence that the one batch you were unhappy with is the one you no longer need for your business. I'd be very skeptical in her shoes.

You need to talk to her properly, but as you let this drift for so long, I think you do need to pay. You certainly can't assume that because you hadn't heard from her she knew the soaps were poor quality.

Due to the long time that she has been waiting for payment (and I do agree that you can't sell them) I would make an offer to pay her 50% of the cost (or whatever the cost she had to make them in the first place) so she is not out of pocket for that. It didn't cost her £500 to make these soaps so you will cover whatever expenses she has had in creating these soaps but nothing more.

Neither of you had any control over the events that lead to the lengthy delay in payment so I think you'll both have to agree to just park that.

I would also return the soaps and suggest that she try to sell them herself.

@smallbizwoes

I should have dealt with it properly at the time, but I was so distracted with what else was going on. Also it was clear that something was wrong with them, but they gradually got worse and worse to the point where they are not fit for purpose.

If you didn’t raise it at the time then you really have no leg to stand on.

Try looking at it the other way round. Would you entertain a complaint from a customer of your own months down the line if you hadn’t heard a word from them?

You need to pay up

You've left it far too long to raise the complaint, having previously told your client you'd settle the invoice. Yes, the soap doesn't look great now, but you failing to mention this from the off puts you in a weak position. You can't prove they were iffy when you received them. As far as she's concerned, based on your messages, you accepted the goods and were happy with them.

You are better off paying the bill and drawing a line under it, because if she does go for small claims you could end up with a higher one for her costs AND you'd have a court judgement against you.

Did she not say 'Oh I'd have to get the new recipe approved, do you want me to go ahead?' As far as I'm aware, if you change/add even one ingredient to soap you have to have a new assessment done of the recipe.

This is a difficult one as you didn't raise the issue at the time. Although you would probably have had complaints from your customers at some point and presumably expected her to provide some sort of refund then.

I think I'd suggest paying her for the materials but not for her profit element. But like others have said, this could potentially go either way if it went to court.

And I absolutely chase my invoices once they are overdue. I don't wait under some illusion of politeness. If I've given someone 14 days to pay me and on day 15 my bank account isn't showing their payment, I chase them. I think the soap maker should have been much more proactive.