To not want to pay this bill? Small business related.

[smallbizwoes]

I really don’t know if IABU. I have had lots of good advice from Mumsnetters in the past, so thought I’d post the issue here and see what you guys think.

I have a small online business. A year or so ago, I met a soap manufacturer - also a small business - and asked her to make some custom soaps (Vanilla and Strawberry) for my business. She did, they were great, I paid the bill and took the soaps. All good. I then asked her to make another order, again I was very happy with what she’d made, took the soaps, paid promptly.

The third time, I asked for a new scent to be added to both custom soaps. I did not know this at the time, but the incorporation of the new scents seemed to be outside of the expertise of the soap maker. She said that she needed to buy in the new scents and I offered to pay a deposit. She said there was no need.

She made the soaps and I picked them up with the intention of paying the bill within the next week or so. However, when I got the soaps home, they seemed odd. A bit discoloured. Still never mind, I am sure if there was an issue the soap maker would have said. I assumed that they were still ‘curing’ and that they would be fine.

Within a few days of picking up the soaps, I experienced a family tragedy which meant that I had to travel overseas. I told the soap maker this and that I would deal with the invoice shortly. At this stage, I had every intention of paying the bill.

I was gone longer than I thought, to the point that I had to close down my business. To be honest, I completely forgot about the soaps as I had so much going on. When I returned home, I remembered the soaps and checked on them and they were terrible. The ‘Vanilla’ ones which were meant to be lemon-coloured were dark brown. The ‘Strawberry’ ones seemed to be covered in a weird mould. They had been stored in a climate controlled room, so it wasn’t anything that I had done. They were completely unfit for sale.

By this stage, I hadn’t heard from the soap maker and I assumed that she knew that the soaps hadn’t worked out as she would have kept samples. I did wonder why I hadn’t heard from her and thought maybe she was embarrassed by the soaps or didn’t want to work with me as my project was too difficult. To be honest, I didn’t think about it beyond that.

Anyway, I posted a general query on a public Facebook page. The soap maker added a post to mine, saying how she was ‘Most disappointed’. I contacted her immediately and she told me that unless I paid the bill, she would pass it onto debt collectors. I sent her a picture of the soaps and asked if she was aware of the problems but she didn’t respond to this. She followed up with 2 more emails saying that she expects full payment.

It is not an insignificant amount, it is £500. I know this isn’t her problem, but I had to close down my business and currently have no income.

I feel that because the bars were so terrible, I should not have to pay for them. Or at least I should only have to cover her costs. I just don’t know. What do you guys think? I want to be fair to her but equally I don’t want to lose £500 of money I don’t have for a product that I cannot sell.

By this stage, I hadn’t heard from the soap maker and I assumed that she knew that the soaps hadn’t worked out as she would have kept samples. I did wonder why I hadn’t heard from her and thought maybe she was embarrassed by the soaps or didn’t want to work with me as my project was too difficult. To be honest, I didn’t think about it beyond that.

Well.

You were supplied with a product custom-made for you.

You acknowledged receipt, and asked for an extension to pay the invoice due to personal matters.

Then you failed to pay because you forgot.

Retrospectively you’re trying to claim this is because you assumed she assumed the batch was bad - but you never informed her of any quality issues at any stage.

I mean - c’mon. Sounds like she tried to be nice (giving you payment grace due to family emergency) and possibly wrote off the debt when she realised your business had folded.

But then you pop up on a mutual FB group asking about packaging - which certainly sounds like you’re trading something - and she felt rather less inclined to be generous…

New title of the thread the soap thief.

That’s really nasty and completely uncalled for.

I guess I’ll have to go with the consensus and pay for them as I worry about the consequences of being taken to court. I’ll also ship them back to her as she’s requested, so that they don’t go to waste.

God knows where the money will come from as obviously I can’t sell them.

No need for anybody to post anymore as the issue is resolved, but thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion.

If you send the soaps back for her to donate as shes suggested would she accept a lesser payment to cover her costs maybe?

I’m not sure about the strawberry soap as I’ve never made soap and am certainly no expert but doesn’t look mouldy from your pic. I can see the raised bits.
Also I’m sure I’ve had a brownish coloured soap from l’occitaine or somewhere before so probably wouldnt find it off putting based on the colour.

I think you should return them. Pay the return postage yourself.

You dealt with this terribly but those soaps are not ok so you shouldn't pay for them. Saying you are skint and you were distracted by family matters is all
Irrelevant. When you buy something you should pay for it or return it promptly

No, don't pay yet. I'm trying to help. You're not necessarily getting good advice here but you need to establish first whether she holds a valid Cosmetic Safety Assessment for the soap, assuming you're in the uk or an eu country.
This whole setup is odd, and it's making me wonder whether in fact it isn't safety assessed, though i may be wrong.

I can give good advice but it would help if you answer the questions i posted upthread, or at least tell me if you can't answer them.
If you haven't already discussed the safety assessment - which would be odd - you need to ask her to let you see a copy of the front page. It should give the name of the chemist, date if assessment, some sort of ref number that identifies the assessment and sufficient detail about the soap to identity it as probably the ones you have - eg scents and colours.

@3Br1tnee

What kind of soap maker can't change the scent of their soap? I wouldn't pay her, she's having a laugh. If she insisted on pursuing this I'd name and shame with pictures all over the internet.

Seasoned but still learning soap maker of 11 years here. There are strict rules about what can go into cosmetic products. A new assessment for a new fragrance can be hundreds of pounds to buy. You simply cannot just go and buy a new fragrance and use it unless the soap maker has one of the pre 2013 assessments. I have one. The white spots could possibly be stearic spots which can happen if the soap is made in cool temperatures. As mentioned before vanilla in soap will eventually go brown even if a stabiliser is used. Not every manufacturer of fragrance oils give notes on how their fragrance behaves in cold process soap.

Beginner soap maker here (but seasoned small business owner) you need to do as pp above said and check she had complied with the cosmetic safety regulations for the recipes used. The legislation around soap making is quite strict.
If it’s melt and pour soap it should have been stored in plastic or it can go funny and I think it has to be used within a year. Often melt and pour soap is shrink wrapped as it attracts moisture

I feel for you OP. The soaps obviously are not fit for purpose, but from a legal perspective I do think you’ve lost the opportunity to refuse to accept them, and would therefore be found liable for payment if it did go to court.

I think your suggestion that you just pay costs is a reasonable one - I would at least ask her if she’s willing to accept that.

YABU as you haven't communicated with her. If you've had time to post on Facebook groups, you've also had time to email her pictures of the soaps and inform her there's a problem with them.

She's given you good grace on the invoice initially, so the onus was on you to sort it, not her to chase it.

It’s completely unfair to do that, the maker didn’t even get a chance to rectify as she was unaware of the problem!

Granted, she shouldn’t have taken on the commission if she couldn’t modify the soaps as required, but she is not the only one at fault

She doesn't know her craft and is selling a shoddy product. I don't think its unfair to let people know that before they buy from her.

@smallbizwoes

I should have dealt with it properly at the time, but I was so distracted with what else was going on. Also it was clear that something was wrong with them, but they gradually got worse and worse to the point where they are not fit for purpose.

If it was clear something was wrong it should have been raised as soon as you took them, not months later. It's not her fault you had a family tragedy. You need to pay up.

[quote smallbizwoes]@SylvanasWindrunner Neither really. To be honest, I hadn't thought about it much over the past few months. I did a couple of times wonder why I hadn't heard from her at all (not that it's her responsibility to chase me) and to be honest I thought that she'd realised the soaps were no good so had written them off.[/quote]
Yet she would have been sat at home thinking I am a small business I need the money for the order but I feel awkward messaging someone to chase payment especially when they suffered a tragedy'

It was on you to remain in contact and make payment.

Parent could have been made in the week before the tragedy and at any point whilst you were abroad. It takes seconds to make an online transaction.

As for a part offer, I think this is rude to suggest, you told her you were happy when you took delivery, you told her you would make payment. This was the point where you should have returned the soaps and asked her to rectify them.

@smallbizwoes

You have now have no proof that the issues with the soap is actually down to the soap maker and not down to the way you have stored them.

It was due to the ingredients used, definitely. I have done some research since and when using a Vanilla scent, you also need to use a colour stabiliser. Apparently this is entry-level soap making. Maybe she just forgot? I guess we'll never know.

So have you had the soap tested to see exactly what products was used, or have you made an assumption based on something you read on the internet? Either way it changes nothing, you said you were happy and would pay

[quote smallbizwoes]@thebeatingofthedrums No, she wants full payment. Have you seen the picture? I think she's got a nerve, tbh. They're not fit for purpose.[/quote]
I have seen the picture, I see a brown soap that is perfectly sellable, I would buy it.
I see a pink soap with some bubbling (I don't see any mould). I would still buy this too.

You are adamant she is is the wrong. She isn't.

1. You took delivery.
2. You said you would pay (indicates you are happy with the goods)
3. You don't pay.
4. You go abroad and message to say you will pay when you get back (with no thought to how the non payment would affect the soap makers business).
5. You return and make no attempt to contact the soap maker, making assumptions she didn't want paying.
6. You make claims she didn't use products, yet you have carried out no testing to back these claims up, instead you make claims like you are an expert soap maker.

I think the vanilla products are unusable . How long ago are we talking - 6 months? I think paying 10 percent as a token gesture and returning but they are not fit for purpose and a small
Business claim would support you.

You should have raised your issues at the time. Sorry.

I hadn't thought about it much over the past few months.

I bet she had! You were owe her £500! As a small business owner yourself, you'll realise that could be a lot of money, maybe even a month's income.

@smallbizwoes

I should have dealt with it properly at the time, but I was so distracted with what else was going on. Also it was clear that something was wrong with them, but they gradually got worse and worse to the point where they are not fit for purpose.

It sounds like you've had a hard time recently but Iike most responders I think it's much too late for you to start raising concerns about the quality of the product. The time for that was when you first realised they looked wrong not several months later. A quick email on delivery saying ' they don't look quite right, are you sure these are ok?' would have helped.

I would pay up if I were you. If this is handed to debt collectors it will make your life very unpleasant and and harm your credit rating. Cut your losses and put this behind you.

This is a public forum. You don't get to decide when the debate is closed.

If it had not been for the family tragedy would you have paid immediately?

I assume you’d have paid and then later noticed that the soaps had changed (after you’d already paid)? If so I’d chalk it up to very bad luck.

You could offer paying costs and returning.

Sounds like a latent defect in the product, not detectable on delivery. But you should have told her immediately after discovery. Check out your position with a solicitor.

Do either of you have T&Cs? I suggest you get some drawn up, if not.

Have you offered to cover the cost of the raw ingredients. She might be willing to take a good faith offer like that rather than go to the hassle of trying to get the full cost out of you

I think back then i wouldn't have paid and would have contacted her but I think it's too late now.

It's been several months, she should have taken the money beforehand and other businesses wouldn't refund you after a month sooo I would see it like that. But also you should have paid the invoice before going away. That was rude

@ManifestDestinee

You didn;t pay the bill, and left her hanging for months, and then shut down your business, all without paying what you owed. If there was an issue with the product you long since missed the point to raise that. You owe her, pay up.

As a freelancer myself, totally agree. All the stuff about family bereavements and overseas travel is sad, but irrelevant.

You ordered a product, which you didn't pay for, "forgot" about, left for months before looking at and only then discovered there was an issue.

I deal with this sort of thing in my job and suppliers are really insistent that they are notified immediately of any issues it differs but anything from straight away to 3 days .
Although I understand I think you should agree to pay but you would like it discounted if she disagree then you have no option to pay but say you won’t be using her again .
I agree with others you should of raised issues much quicker lesson learned.