To teach DS a life lesson or just let it go…

[Whosthebestbabainalltheworld]

DS14 is a capable all-round student, but a bit lazy. He dislikes a particular subject, has decided he doesn’t want to study it and not surprisingly, performed poorly in his summer exam.

Teacher suggests he still aims for higher level in his state exams in 2 years (he could drop to lower level, which is an easier course, but cannot drop the subject entirely). In fact, in our schooling system it’s something he must study until he finishes secondary school (won’t be hard for some to guess the country, but not UK obviously). So once he drops to lower level that’s where he’ll stay for the next 5 years.

My dilemma is this….

Do I agree he can drop levels (despite being capable) or seek to teach him a life lesson - insist he sticks with higher level and pay for extra tuition which he will both hate and resent me for.

I’m torn, please help!

[quote Anoisagusaris]@PallasStrand you can’t say it’s not difficult. Some people find it difficult - I did, and I had no problem with higher level in all my other subjects. The OP needs to decide if he is just lazy or if he genuinely struggles. Even if it’s the latter, I think many kids could get through JC but not LC[/quote]
Admittedly it still isn’t well taught in general, but the OP herself says he’s clever but lazy.

Drop it. My DS's school dropped the language requirement for him and a few other boys. Some children just don't get languages. I would much prefer he put his energies into subjects he loves and enjoy school, than make him do a subject that he has no affinity with.

I'd let him decide but explain the implications for his Leaving Cert, so if he goes to ordinary level in Irish he is going to need to do Honours in all his other subjects and aim for honours in them. Will he be willing to that much work or does he want to try keeping honours Irish in case there is something he's even worse at?
Don't feed the ego with bright but lazy either, I'm bright but lazy... potential doesn't pay the bills!

If he's capable, doing it at higher level for junior cert is the sensible option as it will stand to him in leaving cert, even if he does lower level for LC.

Boys tend to cop on a bit later than girls so he might cop on yet. I certainly wouldn't let him drop down at the end of first year. If needs be, he can drop down in the JC year.

Ds1 is not linguistically gifted (to say the least) but I managed to convince him to continue with higher level french until the end of 5th year even though it was never going to be a points subject for him. He dropped to ordinary level at the beginning of leaving cert and had very little work to do as he had, despite himself, got the basics. Similar with english for ds2.

@TooBigForMyBoots

Drop it. My DS's school dropped the language requirement for him and a few other boys. Some children just don't get languages. I would much prefer he put his energies into subjects he loves and enjoy school, than make him do a subject that he has no affinity with.

Unless he has an exemption that will really restrict his choices at third level.

It's not as bad as it used to be as some courses don't require the language and not all institutions require both Irish and a foreign language but I would be very, very wary of letting a child drop a language without an exemption.

If it is Irish or similar let him drop down (he will have more time to focus on the other subjects). if it’s Maths get a tutor

If its a core subject maths/english/science/history, push push push. If it's something he hates and will never look at again once he leaves school then maybe do the lower level but make sure you don't let standards drop anywhere else - don't want to set a precedent!

HOWEVER, totally contradicting myself, there was so many things I thought were crap at school and didn't try hard at and later in life thought hmmmm reallllyy wish I'd listened in that French/Spanish class or whatever.

@CrackerGal

Wondering if it's Irish too? That's not the impression I was given by my kids both in exam years ... they say they were told if you do ordinary at junior cert it doesn't stop you from doing higher at leaving cert in the same subject. Might depend on the school?

Theoretically it doesn't but realistically it does, as they really won't have a good enough grasp of the subject, particularly if it's a language.

I was placed in the top set for maths in secondary and I hated it. With tutoring and pressure from my parents, I could probably have taken the exams and passed but I was so miserable and unmotivated. The school offered to drop me down to the intermediary level and it made all the difference. I could only hit a C but I did, comfortably, and will always be grateful my parents allowed it. If he's doing well in his subjects other than this one, I'd accept its not his thing and let him do the lower level.

Assuming it's Irish, I'd say there's a huge difference between inability and laziness on this one. I think you put your child in a class that matches their ability, not their level of interest.

I think it would be good to keep him at higher level Irish for the Junior Cert. Even if it all goes horribly wrong, the results will have no impact on him progressing to Leaving Cert, at whatever level he chooses.

The biggest issue I see with dropping to lower level Irish at Leaving Cert level is the impact on attaining the necessary points in his Leaving Cert for high-point courses in college. The UK system is different to the Irish one, and he's going to be relying on points from any subject, irrespective of their relevance to the chosen course.

Most students do 7 subjects for the Leaving. He's going to need 6 of them for points. If he finds himself wanting to do a high-point course (medicine, actuary, veterinary, pharmacy, economics, and who knows what else in years to come), even though Irish won't be relevant, if he does lower level Irish for the LC, then he's putting all his eggs in one basket, and needs the other 6 subjects to go absolutely to plan. That leaves him no fall back, or 'oh shit that exam was awful'. I think better he stick with the higher level in all subjects that phase repeating an entire year because it didn't go to plan in another exam.

Truth is, even if this isn't Irish, the same is true of any subject. I really believe students should sit exams at the level of their ability, not their interest. There's a huge difference between a 14 year old thinking about Summer exams, and an 18 year old thinking about future careers. If at all possible, I wouldn't let his 14 year old self limit his future prospects for a short-term gain of an easier life.

I have a bright capable 15yo who really dislikes one particular subject. I would let him drop to the lower level.

Forgot to say that my bright capable child is also rather lazy.

I think it entirely depends on the subject. If it was something like maths or science, I wouldn't want to limit him at this stage, if he can still drop down in the future if needs be. If it's something he just doesn't enjoy AND has no actual bearing on future opportunities then I'd consider letting him drop

It partly depends on the subject.

In my opinion if it is compulsory I’d try financial incentives and a fab tutor if I could afford it.

My youngest hates writing with a passion and struggles with English. He’s young enough that I can tutor him - yet I have resorting to stickers and money to finish the flipping work books with a ‘determined positive attitude’ when he is older I will get the best English tutor I can afford and stick him with tutoring for the entire time at secondary.

@Tiana4

Also it's worth considering if it is the teacher of subject he hates?

My DD went from loving Maths (for eg) to hating it bc it turned out she was being bullied by the maths teacher who didn't explain but mocked her . She went from predicted 8 to predicted 4-5 by this teacher- who was down marking her. She got a 7 but I considered getting a maths tutor , but once she told me- instead we found online lessons (ask head of maths in school what they recommend) and I taught her some (except matrices as nobody need to learn that!! )

Great post!

My ds always loved science and was good at it. Predicted 7 at gcse. Then hated it. Didn't say why just hated the subject and hated any homework etc. Had a teacher who was just vile to him and allowed students who were bullying him to bully him in class. Told me he'd fail the subject because his writing is poor and his communication is weak (he has a physical disability and autism!).

After an incident where she was caught red handed being an arse they moved him teachers.

He went back up to predicted a 6 in a term and the following year had an even better teacher and ended up with 9/9 in science!

Is there anyway he can stick at higher level for now and if he doesn't get on with it over the next year drop down at a later date?

Are we talking about Irish. I did higher level Irish for the Leaving Cert. I really, really struggled with it and strongly regret dropping down to Ordinary Level. I was a good all round student but struggled at Irish and many many years later I still have nightmares about the subject. I do feel that other subjects suffered as I spent so much time on Irish but got very little in return of points etc.

Are there subjects that he could do outside school. Many people in this School took Argricultural Economics outside of school for the Leaving Cert as an extra subject when they dropped to a lower level in another subject or LCVO

If it wasn't compulsory, I'd certainly let him drop it.

He's going to be bored either way though, isn't he - he has to study it. Unlikely he'll realise at his age that the work might be more stimulating than avoiding it.

I always think it's really tough on the kids who are struggling but trying to be stuck with the bright but lazy - makes for a dreadful classroom dynamic. If he's the type to play up when he's bored I'd keep him in the higher classes if the school will have him there.

He's also likely (unless schools have changed) to have stronger teachers with stronger classroom management at higher level. Realise there are many honourable exceptions there, though. But at 14 he's forming learning habits for the next few years - bright but lazy needs stimulation.

I've q son starting the leaving cert cycle and I'm happy to allow him to drop to ordinary level in maths this year. Despite years of tutors, he is not a natural at it and struggles a lot. Far better he get the points at this level, then fail at higher.

He goes to a gaelcholaiste and is very proficient in irish but says there are many in his class who have dropped too.

@SMabbutt

Why not get him to look at the impact of dropping to the lower level. Say before he makes a decision you want him to list the benefits and problems of staying at the higher level and the same for dropping down. So staying positives may be to do with future education or employment and being with his mates for support in study. Negatives could include restrictions on opportunities, stress or too much work impacting his chosen subjects. Dropping a level may be that it frees time for subjects he needs for future education, it has no impact on his employability etc. At least that way any decision is made with full understanding of the consequences. Also link it to an undertaking to use the reduced expectations in one subject to allow them to focus on at least one other subject with a realistic target of what actions he will be taking and aims to achieve.

Completely agree with this, walk him through the two different routes, lower or higher. What does it cut off? Would it stop him accessing anything?

He needs to be led through this. Look at university or job requirements.

You do need to say which subject it is though to get a better and more knowledgeable answer from MN.

Will he be ruling himself out of any college courses he could potentially be interested in - I'm not overly familiar with current requirements but for example I thought higher level Irish was a requirement for teaching and higher maths was required for some engineering courses? Again, presuming you're in Ireland.

@Moiraroseswigs

Will he be ruling himself out of any college courses he could potentially be interested in - I'm not overly familiar with current requirements but for example I thought higher level Irish was a requirement for teaching and higher maths was required for some engineering courses? Again, presuming you're in Ireland.

Obviously he's very young to be thinking about what I've mentioned here, but it could help him see the repercussions of what he wants to do.

What ‘life lesson’ are you hoping to teach him here because the main one I can think of here is ‘you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink’

I too think you are talking about Irish. I'd let him do Irish at honours level and reassess in 5th/6th yr exams. If he's just being lazy, he might still get more points by sitting the honours exam. If he is just being lazy. what's stopping him being lazy in the pass classes?

I'm not sure what the life lesson is - if I'm lazy, my parents will throw money at the problem to try to fix it?
If the subject impacts his future prospects, then I'd keep at the higher level. If his friends are all working at the higher level, then I'd mention that to him. Rightly or wrongly, DCs can be impacted positively by peer pressure and he may not want to be the only one in his friend group dropping to the lower level.
If neither of those things are true, then I'd let him drop to the lower level.

I don't know what the life lesson is here. I hate a subject so I've got to do more of it? Hmm. Why? Unless it's a essential subject let him do the lower level.

In the UK I'd only throw money at Maths and English.