DD saying her dad is scary.

[Shockedatthesystem80]

My daughter only sees her father in a contact centre.. We've been going through the family court for nearly 1.5 years so far and no closer to a final resolution.. She has a 2 hour session.
Most of the time her session is positive. Her father was extremely physically and mentally abusive towards her. He is a very cruel man who the last Judge got the better measure of and has refused his multiple requests to increase contact.
In recent weeks, she's been saying to other people that her daddy is scary and he hurts her, obviously the latter part isn't true as his session is completely supervised. I've taken her to the session as usual this week and she ran up to the supervisor and said "my daddy is scary" and got very upset. The supervisor looked puzzled and said why are you saying that you have lots of fun with dad. Then she asks me if it's OK to ask her why she's saying that, I said of course.. She has however been telling people at nursery the same thing lately and I've made an appointment for her health visitor to see her as I'm worried she is still being traumatised.
The supervisor text me during the session to say that she's having a nice time and ran up to him straight away and it's odd that she said "my daddy is scary"
I said to her, no it's not odd.. You only see 2 hours of her life.. You can't cast aspersions on anything else.. I said if you're trying to make inference that I would denigrate him in front of her then I don't take kindly to that.
My daughters father is so cruel and abusive, there is a reason why he's having supervised contact..
I feel like she's inferred I've basically told her to say he's scary and I'm really upset because Irrespective of how abusive he's been to us both, I absolutely would never denigrate him to or in front of her because quite frankly she's been through enough in her short life.
I'm not sure what the point in posting is, but I feel like these supervisors are siding with him when they are supposed to remain impartial. He plays dad's of the fucking year in his contact sessions, I swallow every bit of how I feel and supress my emotions and take her, I've never missed a single session to date.
I just don't like how I've been made to feel.

I'm genuinely baffled how he can have any contact with her when it is clearly traumatizing her.

To me it sounds like your dd has finally found the courage to talk about what happened to her in the past. I'd let her talk, give her a big cuddle and tell her it won't happen again because the judge won't let it.

This is no way bashing you here and this sounds awful for you and your DD, when you say you both had to hide in the toilets from him at the beginning of contact, would that have added to her saying he's scary, because she was hiding from him? I think them letting him tell her she has to eat is utterly ridiculous too, why are they allowing that to become an issue, it's a 2 hour visit. Could you complain to social services about how the contact centre is run?

So she last saw dad when she was less than 12 months old. No contact for 6 months, and only supervised contact since, for 1.5 years, where there is no evidence that there is any behaviour of concern from him? Whilst I understand that before aged one he did abuse her, two horses later saying he is, you need to see if you can organise with social work for someone to talk to her regarding her concerns and fears now.

@HappyMeal564

This is no way bashing you here and this sounds awful for you and your DD, when you say you both had to hide in the toilets from him at the beginning of contact, would that have added to her saying he's scary, because she was hiding from him? I think them letting him tell her she has to eat is utterly ridiculous too, why are they allowing that to become an issue, it's a 2 hour visit. Could you complain to social services about how the contact centre is run?

No I was taking her to the toilets anyway but we just had to stay in there longer as I saw him pulling up just before going in so knew he'd be outside.. It wasn't a dash to run and hide. That wouldn't have scared her.

Your poor DD. She sounds traumatized and I would highly recommend to get her therapy to deal with this.

Also, the supervisor is far from impartial, overstepping the line by accusing you and dismiss and invalidate your DD’s feelings (surely they can understand that there is a reason they’re having supervised contact in a special centre!). In your position I would contact my solicitor about this before you make a complaint about them.

but we just had to stay in there longer as I saw him pulling up just before going in so knew he'd be outside..

Is it possible whilst you aren't actually vocalising a dislike for her dad she is picking up on subconscious cues - ie keeping her in the toilets longer than necessary, your nervousness and anxiousness before each session? And it's this which is making her say that her dad is scary?

@HappyMeal564

This is no way bashing you here and this sounds awful for you and your DD, when you say you both had to hide in the toilets from him at the beginning of contact, would that have added to her saying he's scary, because she was hiding from him? I think them letting him tell her she has to eat is utterly ridiculous too, why are they allowing that to become an issue, it's a 2 hour visit. Could you complain to social services about how the contact centre is run?

It's not run by social service so no, but she could potentially report to ofsted if there were serious concerns.

@SD1978

So she last saw dad when she was less than 12 months old. No contact for 6 months, and only supervised contact since, for 1.5 years, where there is no evidence that there is any behaviour of concern from him? Whilst I understand that before aged one he did abuse her, two horses later saying he is, you need to see if you can organise with social work for someone to talk to her regarding her concerns and fears now.

A cafcass officer will do that when they write the section 7 report.

The father who has hurt her takes her to the loo? That's his opportunity. Put a stop to it.

@twinningatlife

but we just had to stay in there longer as I saw him pulling up just before going in so knew he'd be outside..

Is it possible whilst you aren't actually vocalising a dislike for her dad she is picking up on subconscious cues - ie keeping her in the toilets longer than necessary, your nervousness and anxiousness before each session? And it's this which is making her say that her dad is scary?

But what I'm trying to say to you is that this isn't the first time she's said she's scared.. She's told her peers at nursery, she's told her key worker at nursery that he hurts her.. As a result of the forcing her to eat in the contact session she vomited afterwards.. That was a few months ago and even now she says her daddy made her sick and poorly, months on.

@CloseYourEyesAndSee sorry I can’t seem to work the quotes so I’m referring to your much earlier response to me. I still see the problematic language use. You state it isn’t a safeguarding issues but it is. Just because policy and procedure say it isn’t, doesn’t mean it isn’t. It is more helpful to say something like policy and procedure sadly don’t recognise this as a safeguarding concern. Because in reality of course it is - there is risk of significant mental trauma here. I know this because I have lived this with my own children. Sadly, your advice that the only way to sort it is through the family courts is just not true. This assumes the courts will do the right thing by the child. There is countless testimony to say that this is simply not the case. That is why I think the language we use is so important to keep highlighting a completely broken family court system. The more we all commit to language that is critical of this system, the more likely it is that we can affect change to protect more children in the family courts.

@Shockedatthesystem80 - OP I’m sorry I haven’t directly responded to you earlier. This is a situation very close to my own experience and in some ways I didn’t feel that would be helpful because my experience was not a good one. I had to sleep on it. Listen to your solicitor, make those written complaints to the contact centre but do bear in mind that this may have little effect, no effect or an adverse outcome (you may be seen as obstructive to contact). I’m concerned that the social worker at the contact centre does have an agenda here - they appear to be following the statement that it is in the child’s best interests to see both parents, without considering, unless that is harmful for the child. This is sadly not an unusual stance and could make things difficult for you but I sincerely hope not. It can be quite a lottery in the family court. What I would say though - you have seen that the family court system is not set up to protect children. We would not expect adults to be forced to have weekly contact with their abuser and would not argue that this is in their best interests. So with this in mind, you need to be taking steps to protect your child yourself - at the same time as trying to go down the legal channels for better outcomes - because the courts may not offer the protection they should. Put in place support for your DDs mental health now - I’d suggest reading up on therapeutic parenting. Her early experiences, coupled with what a child will see (because they don’t understand court orders) as you her mother taking her to see her abusive father, may lead to both trauma and attachment issues. Therapeutic parenting may help to negate some of the effects of this and help you both to heal. Good luck to you and your DD 💐

I'm hoping cafcass turn things around.. There's dispute about who will do the section 7 at the moment, he doesn't want cafcass or the local authority to author it because he thinks they are biased towards me, so he's put in a request for an independent social worker of his choosing to do it. I would never agree to that.

@HairyMaryMyCanary

The father who has hurt her takes her to the loo? That's his opportunity. Put a stop to it.

If only it were that simple!

It really isn't that simple :(

You state it isn’t a safeguarding issues but it is. Just because policy and procedure say it isn’t, doesn’t mean it isn’t. It is more helpful to say something like policy and procedure sadly don’t recognise this as a safeguarding concern. Because in reality of course it is - there is risk of significant mental trauma here.

I think the confusion here is the use of the term 'safeguarding concern'. When you state something is a safeguarding concern and therefore children's services should be involved this is incorrect use of the term. Children's services have a specific and limited remit. This situation simply wouldn't come under their remit. The OP needs to seek recourse either through the contact service or through court. Thankfully she has a section 7 report due to be completed which will look at contact and the impact on DD. Something being potentially risky to a child is not automatically a 'safeguarding concern' in the context of children's services. It's nothing to do with 'policy and procedures'.

Sorry if I'm putting two and two together and getting five, but Op are you the same poster who wanted contact cancelled because the supervisor had taken them to a 'dirty park'?

@Shockedatthesystem80

I'm hoping cafcass turn things around.. There's dispute about who will do the section 7 at the moment, he doesn't want cafcass or the local authority to author it because he thinks they are biased towards me, so he's put in a request for an independent social worker of his choosing to do it. I would never agree to that.

I hope so too - but the system is very, very flawed so whilst doing the Section 7 and going through the court processes on the one hand, I would also advise looking into therapeutic parenting to negate any possible issues for your DD growing up in this situation. Based on what you have said it is highly unlikely contact will cease so your daughter will still be seeing her abuser for the foreseeable. This means that for her the messages are very mixed because all of the things we tell children about keeping themselves safe, telling adults if something happens, it’s not okay for people to do cuz to you etc, go out the window when it comes to this situation. Made all the more confusing for her because it’s her Dad doing it and society tells her that shouldn’t be the case. She may have lots of conflicting feelings which may lead to mental ill health if left, she may have attachment issues as well. The more trauma and attachment informed you are, the better equipped you will be to help your DD navigate this.

I did ‘all the right things’, all the processes, followed the rules but court still ordered contact for my 2 children with a registered sex offender who had abused them along with his partner. It has caused tremendous mental health and attachment issues for my now teen children and one has been diagnosed with complex, trauma-related mental health conditions because I wasn’t as informed on therapeutic parenting as I am now. My family still has a lot of work to do to overcome this, I wouldn’t want you in the same boat down the line so make sure you are equipping yourself to help your DD because in mine and, judging by the recent channel 4 documentary on family courts, many others’ experience is the courts and their processes are not fit for purpose and don’t always have the best interests of the child at heart.

April. It's beyond appalling that the courts do this. Is there any way you could somehow seek compensation for the damage this has caused your daughters, to help with therapy etc?

Have you posted this before under another name, where you were concerned because they’d taken your DD outside of the centre to a park with no coat?

@Kneesaregood x post!

@Aspiringmatriarch

April. It's beyond appalling that the courts do this. Is there any way you could somehow seek compensation for the damage this has caused your daughters, to help with therapy etc?

There’s a lack of accountability in the family court - another of its many flaws it seems. There are groups trying to hold the family courts to account and to affect change and in time I may pursue this alongside them but at the moment I’m not ready, I have so much I need to give to my children to help them heal. So in the meantime I’m just on this thread trying to help OP get the best outcome for her DD - and also trying to help people see how very, very flawed the family court system is because I think the more people who realise this, the more voices there are asking for change. Thank you for caring @Aspiringmatriarch

@CloseYourEyesAndSee

You state it isn’t a safeguarding issues but it is. Just because policy and procedure say it isn’t, doesn’t mean it isn’t. It is more helpful to say something like policy and procedure sadly don’t recognise this as a safeguarding concern. Because in reality of course it is - there is risk of significant mental trauma here.

I think the confusion here is the use of the term 'safeguarding concern'. When you state something is a safeguarding concern and therefore children's services should be involved this is incorrect use of the term. Children's services have a specific and limited remit. This situation simply wouldn't come under their remit. The OP needs to seek recourse either through the contact service or through court. Thankfully she has a section 7 report due to be completed which will look at contact and the impact on DD. Something being potentially risky to a child is not automatically a 'safeguarding concern' in the context of children's services. It's nothing to do with 'policy and procedures'.

It has everything to do with policy and procedure - “specific and limited remit” and “not a safeguarding concern in the context of children’s services” are explicitly related to the policies in place to categorise what is or isn’t a safeguarding concern and procedurally what children’s services are and are not able to do. I am talking about language here, because it is important. Just because a policy document says something isn’t a safeguarding concern doesn’t mean it isn’t - just that it is not recognised as such in that policy document. That is a very big, and potentially very damaging for the children involved, difference. The public who have no experience of this will look to professionals to guide them. It’s important to highlight that just because something isn’t categorised as a safeguarding concern doesn’t mean in reality it isn’t because people will assume, ‘all fine here nothing to see’ and move on - instead of questioning why it isn’t classed as a safeguarding concern. How can there be change for the better for children if we aren’t questioning these things?

@AprilHeather I totally understand. Such a difficult situation to be in. I hope you and your family find healing and justice.

@Kneesaregood

Sorry if I'm putting two and two together and getting five, but Op are you the same poster who wanted contact cancelled because the supervisor had taken them to a 'dirty park'?

No. If you read the thread properly I did not write a thread about wanting contact being cancelled. I've never cancelled contact.. But yes, the same poster.. I've raised concerns with the contact centre but I'm given false reassurance. My ex is trying to push interim contact up to weekly now in spite of the findings made against him and the fact the section 7 hasn't been ordered yet. I'm worried he will get the contact centre on side.