To expect my small children to behave in a restaurant?!

[Whyemseeaye]

We've been out this morning to meet a few of DH friends, who we don't see often, for brunch at a nice restaurant.

Our DC are 20 months and 3.5 years old.

On the whole they're pretty good but I find their behaviour when dining out a bit challenging. They seem to pick up on that and up the ante.

This morning the eldest smacked DH, was whining and generally being a pain. The youngest refused to get in the high chair and started crying every time I attempted to get them in it.

Friends were v understanding. They have children who are slightly older.

I don't know what to do. We go out to eat at least once a week and sometimes they're fine, others not so much. Husband is in to "gentle parenting" which isn't really my style. I expect them to behave and to do what they're told.

I found this morning really embarrassing.

AIBU to think they're old enough to do a little bit better than today's efforts

Honestly, I think you are expecting far too much.
You took them to a nice (for them probably boring) restaurant with friends you don't see often. Perfect conditions for small children to play up in.
I rarely eat out with my twin 3.5 year olds as I find it hard as a solo parent. I have to watch them like a hawk, they're always grabbing at something, or spilling something. I'd rather just not take them to an environment wherein I get stressed and feel like I'm nagging/telling them off all the time.
We expect too much of our little people in this country, I think.

@GobbleHobble

*laugh at your smugness and hope you are blessed with a little 'terrorist' next time round. Children are very different-it isn't your superior parenting*

Wtf * a8mint

My comments were to suggest to op that her expectations are too high. I don't think being "well behaved" at 20 months is a thing. Hence my "fucking stressful" comment. Despite her maybe seeing other angels of that age - it isn't accurate, her DC are not "badly behaved".

How can you interpret my post to mean my dc are perfectly behaved? It's not true and I don't think that.

My thoughts exactly. Eating out with small children does need some planning. Our adult DC took our GC out to suitable cafes from a young age but always with some preparation OP, try not to be too worried about what other people will think 😏

One is basically a baby and the other not much older at 3. I get wanting them to behave but not expecting them to. Their behaviour is totally normal and they won’t get why they shouldn’t behave that way in restaurants in particular.

I do expect them to be respectful of other people and their surroundings. I don't think it's ever too young to expect that?!

Yes, it is. A newborn has no concept of others or surroundings. All it knows is it's hungry/ thirsty/ tired/ scared etc. And it takes children a really, really long time to grow out of that. Some children are naturally better at verbalising their needs than others so appear "better behaved" but it is developmental in that main plus lots of teaching opportunities that the needs of others are equal to their own.

It also depends on how you were managing the situation. I find if I want well behaved children at the restaurant I'm pretty much constantly interacting with them, anticipating their needs and managing them before they act in ways deed socially unacceptable to the situation. It generally means I don't get to talk to the other adults I'm out with. As they get older (3.5yo should maybe manage) things like colouring, a picture book and small toys may help them entertain themselves for short periods, but it depends on the temperament of the child.

I was expecting this to be about 6 and 8 year olds.

My kids are of a similar age, I know they wouldn't behave in a restaurant so I wouldn't put myself through the hell of that situation.

We are taking it slow by going out for coffee in family friendly places.

YABU to expect them to behave you either need a pub with a beer garden and play equipment, buy them an iPad, a pub with soft play…. Or avoid pubs/restaurants until they’re older.

You need to lower your expectations op.
I don’t like giving kids iPads or phones but we take small toys in my handbag or colouring etc
20 months is still so tiny, and even your 3 year old to be fair. You should explain your expectations to your three year old, try and keep them busy with colouring etc, try and make the idea of it fun for them instead of something stressful (‘o aren’t we lucky to be eating a nice meal out today’ etc)
Everyone always comments how well behaved my ds (aged 3) is when we go out to eat, that’s because I refuse to make it stressful for myself, ds knows my expectations and I try and make it an enjoyable experience for him. Ultimately if I need to take ds out for a few minutes me and dh both work as a team,

I have 4 yo twins and only recently can I take them out to cafes etc. The very thought when they were under 3 was enough to make me cry 🤣

Agree with the consensus here. My dd was great at 3 but ds is 18 months and simply won't sit still. We just don't take him out to eat atm. We usually would eat out quite a lot so it's a shame but it's not worth the stress. Hopefully in 6-12 months he'll be better.

I thought this was a joke thread but now I'm not so sure...

A less than 2 year old doesn't care about being respectful at the dinner table and introducing an iPad isn't going to teach them table manners.

Fuck that. I bought into the whole ‘you need to take them to places when they’re little so they learn how to behave’ bollocks and it was nothing but stress. Gave up til DS was 4 and he got much better. Funnily enough despite missing out on that crucial early restaurant-going experience he has managed to get the hang of it.

@Whyemseeaye

They're such lovely kids (IMO!) that I don't want to people who don't really know them to think they're badly behaved.

It makes me a bit frazzled

I think you have very unrealistic expectations of the behaviour of your children. You might be suffering from a bit of social anxiety which is fuelling these expectations.

@GobbleHobble

We eat out regularly with a 2 year 4 months old. We regularly get smiling comments about how well behaved, doesn't need a high chair, what an angel, lots of waiting staff say it's surprising how little entertainment we need to do, no need for a mobile phone or colouring book distraction etc.

But tbh it's because dh and I are a well oiled machine, we time the table with precision, near to little one being hungry bit not too hungry, only at a certain window of the morning, not ever beyond an hour near naptime, we agree who leaves the table with toddler if kicking off in advance, we bring a couple of certain hit foods in case of even fave food being irrationally rejected, we only dine places we can pay quickly and leave and parking is near.... Honestly it's a fucking stress fest. It's worth the prep but seriously it takes longer to prep the conditions than we spend eating! I even wear unusual jewellery as backup entertainment!

You would look at us a think it's easy . It really isn't!

Don't worry, we haven't got a miracle child, you just don't see the hard work an occasional spectacular failures.

Also I would never ever ever take toddler out for anything more than a small snack alone - outnumbering DC is my number 1 suggestion!!

This is really great coping advice from @GobbleHobble.

Also, bring an iPod!!!!

@Whyemseeaye

They're such lovely kids (IMO!) that I don't want to people who don't really know them to think they're badly behaved.

It makes me a bit frazzled

That's your problem and your issue. Stop putting that on their very tiny shoulders.

Deal with it and let your kids behave the age they are.

To be honest, I just don’t take DD to restaurants with me. I see my friends and DP looks after her, and I look after her when DP sees his friends. Job done!

Definitely expecting waaaaay too much.

I'm not sure if this is a weird joke or not. I mean it's not funny, but I also don't understand how someone who has been a parent for 3.5 years can be so clueless about child development and the basics of what a child is capable of at a given age.

Of course a 1 year old doesn't give a shit about being "respectful". They are not capable of that level of awareness. Many 3.5 year olds (and older) aren't.

You are expecting very small children to behave like adults, essentially. Babies and toddlers are impulsive and do not possess full control of their emotions. If they are bored, tired, hungry, want attention etc then they are likely to act out. They don't care or have any awareness of adult social norms and etiquette, or that you are embarrassed by them. They just don't have that kind of cognitive ability.

We gave up on eating out until DD was probably almost 4. Before that it was just unpleasant and stressful and she hated it anyway. But eventually she grew up a little and now she behaves beautifully and really enjoys the experience. If you want to make sure your kids can behave in a restaurant and enjoy eating out when they are old enough then it's better to focus on teaching good table manners at home, introducing lots of different foods etc so that when they are ready to enjoy eating out, they already know how to behave.

@SmidgenofaPigeon

You should have given them a job to do to keep them occupied.

The smallest one should have been able to manage topping up glasses, for instance. The older one could definitely be invited to participate in the conversation. Did anyone ask their opinion on the Taliban, for example?

I am such an idiot , I began reading this as serious advice and now I am

I love that gentle parenting is dismissed as stupid yet most posters in here are giving advice that is very much in line with gentle parenting - not expecting too much from small children who are unable to regulate their emotions and have small attention spans.

Gentle parenting isn't letting kids do what they want. It's having age appropriate expectations, boundaries and discipline. Some idiots give it a bad name but it doesn't mean it's a load of bollocks.

@Whyemseeaye

They're such lovely kids (IMO!) that I don't want to people who don't really know them to think they're badly behaved.

It makes me a bit frazzled

I think the issue might be the 'nice' restaurant. I'm sure you wouldn't feel half as stressed about their behaviour at a more 'child friendly' place. Whilst I do agree that it is never too early to learn good manners, I'm not sure the DC are of an age (20mo in particular) where they can be expected. Just keep modelling such behaviour yourself and they'll pick it up in time.

A 20 month old is not capable of understanding the concept of respect for their surroundings. It's daft to imagine that's possible. Some of them will sit still and quietly at that age, but it's not because of respect, it's the luck of the draw.

We have taken our 2 DCs out for meals fairly regularly since they were small babies (they are 7 and 5yo now). It is never as relaxing as pre- or without DCs, but it has mostly been ok as we:

• eat at places that are child friendly, both in prioritising getting some kind of food in front of them quickly (even if just crudités) and are more relaxed about normal levels of small person noise (eg Harvester).
• bring things to do that are new/they don't often play with. At OP's DCs ages, this was tiny pots of Playdough, colouring, Galt water magic books, and the tablet. I also brought a few small snacks just in case the food took a bit longer.
• removing them if they caused trouble until they were ready to rejoin society calmed down.

It was always fine when just the 4 of us, but is trickier once you added in other people. DCs would recognise the reduction in attention and play up accordingly. Sometimes the unpredictability of their age caused a complete disaster, but this was usually because we hadn't observed either rule 1 or 2 above, often due to circumstance. The most notable example was 15mo DD1 throwing an epic tantrum in an extremely naice seafront restaurant in Cornwall because I ate my last prawn (I didn't know she wanted it!). We had failed rule #1 as it was the only place available to eat and had chanced it, and she had actually been fantastic up until that point. I had to carry a planking and screaming toddler past the rest of the restaurant and wait outside with her until she calmed down.
These days, DCs are happy as long as they can join in a bit of chit chat and are plied with drinks that aren't water. If getting restless, they are given a screen.

I’m surprised at this - we have been taking my two (now 11 and 8) out for food every week since they were newborns (8 days old and 7 days old respectively) and it has always been ok.

Trying to remember what worked when they were little....

I think that the main thing was that we accepted that there wasn’t going to be lots of lovely adult conversation. (And sometimes there would be practically none other than “have you got the wipes?”) That we would both have to spend pretty much the entire meal talking to, playing with or entertaining the kids. We would always avoid times when they were tired. And have enough snacks with us that if the meal took time to come they would not be hungry. And we would play games with them throughout. (Orchard toys have games suitable for very little ones that are also fairly portable.) We would also let them get involved in deciding what they wanted to eat and get them to order themselves from a very young age. (And if they wanted to order something ridiculous we would let them and then one of us would order sausages and chips or whatever and then share with them if they didn’t like the crazy meal they had ordered.)

So basically.....

More planning than the Normandy Lamdings
More food than a Famous Five picnic
More toys than the Early Learning Centre.

Jobs a good’un!

I think it also helps if you are not particularly good at cooking (like me and DH!) as the kids quickly learn that going to a pub / restaurant is their only way to get some decent food!

i would not have taken mine to a restaurant at that age quite honestly. I'd have gone for a picnic or somewhere more casual where they could have run about.