To think no way should I creep and apologise?

[Suntrap]

Hi all
I need urgent response as I'm away on holiday with DP and DC and also a group of family are coming today (different accommodation) and will be spending time with them. Although even if they weren't, the question would be the same

So havent been getting on great with DH for a couple of months. Been together a long time so not a massive issue as we always work things out.

Anyway couple of weeks ago we had a big row and it wasn't my fault
If it was, I'd apologise. Tbh, hes less likely to discuss things and 'talk '. His solution to arguments is leave it a few day to blow over and thinks all is okay.

I hate this approach, but if he has done something to really upset me then he will make a fuss and say sorry and kiss angry hug etc. But mostly he just thinks let things go and all will be okay.

So build up to the holiday, he seemed very annoyed with me still. No attempt to make amends. I kind of tried to broach the subject and that we were going away and not a good atmosphere and he didnt seem to give a shit.

I couldnt face any more eye rolls and 'oh God, dont start' comments if I asked if all was okay, so I left it.

So we go to our holiday home thurs evening and all seemed well. We were talking normalish and having a laugh. Normally in one of these situations, one of us would say "let's forget it and have a nice holiday, you know I love you blah blah".
I was hoping this would happen, but I wasnt prepared to be the one to say it as he was bloody horrible to me before we came away.

I know it sounds like I'm playing a silly game, but I'm not. We have been together 20+ years and have 4 DC. So we arent young kids.

Anyway, so I thought we were on the right track. Was looking forward to a fun time, affection, kisses and cuddles and bloody sex!!!!

So 2 days in and he seems quite happy with a kind of civil but not a massively brilliant approach.
No attempt to be nice. Hes not horrible but very matter of fact.
Now I could say
"Hey let's have a good holiday, forget our row!"
But I actually feel like saying WTAF?
Also, I dont want to cause a other row!!
What should I do? If it were my family coming today I'd think bollocks and ignore him!
Seriously though, holidays are precious and I dont want another week of just being civil and general chit chat. I feel like I'm away with a work colleague.

@Blossomtoes

As one of the world’s greatest apologisers, I honestly don’t understand this. I learnt very early in life that apology is a tool that takes the heat and drama out of just about any situation so I just do it. It doesn’t really matter if it’s my fault or not, it just means we can move on.

I know I’m unusual and the accusations of being a doormat will now come flooding in but it works for me. It costs me absolutely nothing and has served me well in relationships and the workplace for 50 years. My mantra is life’s too short.

Apologising when it's not your fault is allowing the other person to continue to be a cunt to you and others though, as it makes them believe what they have done or said is ok. So it's really not helping the situation. It means the other person knows your a pushover and will likely continue to treat you like shit. But if that works for you then carry on.

I will @Notaroadrunner. I anticipated posts like yours. As I said it’s done well for me for half a century. Nobody treats me like a cunt because I’m an assertive apologiser.

Your feelings are absolutely valid and him refusing to acknowledge them is really bad for your marriage.

If you cave and make the first move you are in effect accepting his opinion that your feelings don't matter.

Youre holding your ground and he's being stubborn. Only your, or more accurately he, knows why. It sounds to be like he just wants to "win" rather than resolve anything.

I don't have a solution and I'm sorry its putting a dampener on your holiday.

Stick a fork in it. It’s done.

You think he was “very mean” to you. He obviously thought he wasn’t at all. We obviously have no idea what the situation was.

And then you kept bringing it up, and he felt he’d never been mean in the first place so he just got more angry about it.

Now he’s being politely civil, because it’s not even worth a pleasant holiday (or holiday sex) to sort this out.

Whatever’s going on in your marriage, I would say you’re on the road to the end. You might have said, “we’ve been married 20+ years, few bad months, we’ll get through it, we always do.” But have you? Have you ever escalated a fight like this? Enough to swallow up several weeks and a holiday? Enough to kill your sex life?

Maybe I’m wrong, he’ll “come to the negotiation table,” and it’ll all be fine tomorrow. But I really somehow doubt it. Sorry, OP.

Have you tried putting what you want to say in writing? My OH is very conflict avoidant, so any attempts to bring up discussion of previous disagreements or hurt or whatever are met with resistance (which of course creates its own tensions and further hurt…). I’ve found that typing it all out into a series of texts or an email for him to read, think about and respond to takes some of that heat out of it and makes him think about what I’m actually saying, rather than the ‘confrontation’ (as he perceives it).

Without knowing what the disagreement was about it’s impossible for anyone here to say who is right or wrong here. Maybe he feels equally hard done by and hurt but doesn’t show it the same way, you already said he’s not a great communicator. So while you can tell him how hurt you feel you have no way of knowing how he is also feeling, and how his own feelings will be influencing whether or not he feels the need to fix it this time. Maybe he’s fed up of always having to apologise for your hurt feelings with no shits given about his own and has equally had enough this time round.

None of us know. And neither do you because neither of you know how to communicate with each other.

I agree with the many other PP who have said you are BOTH at fault here, your communication within marriage is dysfunctional at best, none existent at worst.

I think you have a real big problem here and it’s been going on so long (20yrs) that I’m not sure if it’s fixable without real commitment from both sides and a really good marriage counsellor.

@RightYesButNo

Stick a fork in it. It’s done.

You think he was “very mean” to you. He obviously thought he wasn’t at all. We obviously have no idea what the situation was.

And then you kept bringing it up, and he felt he’d never been mean in the first place so he just got more angry about it.

Now he’s being politely civil, because it’s not even worth a pleasant holiday (or holiday sex) to sort this out.

Whatever’s going on in your marriage, I would say you’re on the road to the end. You might have said, “we’ve been married 20+ years, few bad months, we’ll get through it, we always do.” But have you? Have you ever escalated a fight like this? Enough to swallow up several weeks and a holiday? Enough to kill your sex life?

Maybe I’m wrong, he’ll “come to the negotiation table,” and it’ll all be fine tomorrow. But I really somehow doubt it. Sorry, OP.

I think this.

I think he obviously did something very wrong for you to continue to be so upset.

He doesn't care, refuses to engage, and gets enraged if you challenge him.

He sounds like an unpleasant man.

I think the advice to disengage yourself and get through the holiday is good.

Let him do EVERYTHING for an with his family.

Start thinking about the relationship honestly.

Is this a one off or a persistent problem?

If it is look at your options.

When you return I would be asking him if he wants the marriage to end?

Because he IS behaving like a man who wants his marriage to end.

Most people in a happy loving relationship are not nasty, refuse to apologise and are angry when the subject is brought up because it is not resolved.

So yours is clearly not a happy marriage.

You need to protect yourself and think honestly about it possibly being over.

Protecting yourself is key.

I take your point, @CaltSkippy but I've found that making the first move doesn't make him 'win' and leave me resentful. It just opens the door - he always apologises too and will then actually open up about whatever is bothering him to make him behave that way. It warms up the atmosphere enough to move forward. I tke that as a win for me too.

Hi and thanks for the replies and thoughts.
Well we have kind of sorted it out.
The day his family came we didnt actually see them as they arrived late in the end. So we had an extra day.

Basically it sort of resolved itself (for now).
Sunday we had a nice family day. Out all day. Was relaxed
And we both started speaking normally.
By the evening he made a few casual references to the situation before we left. I said he was wrong and he didnt get cross. He admitted it.
However, I didnt discuss it further as it's our holiday. I didn't want get upset or angry or talk about it or anything serious at length. Not during a family holiday.

When we are home though I am going to demand a time where we talk. It's not arguments that are an issue. All couples have them. Its how they are dealt with. Or rather how he doesn't deal with them.

I would out myself in RL, as the original row was over a very specific subject. I was very upset over something he had done wrong (morally I suppose). Not to me specifically. And he didn't hurt anyone or hurt anything!! But It was something I believed to be wrong.
Something i would have thought he would think was wrong too!! Difficult to explain but I was shocked that he thought it was alright. It wasn't.

Sounds like your marriage is over, to me.

So now you’re doing exactly what he was doing that you hated - he’s opened up the conversation and you’ve switched to civil non related chat - exactly what this whole thread was moaning about him for doing! And you’re now saving up for when you get home when he now thinks it’s resolved because he’s apologised?! Can see that going down well - he’ll then say why are you dragging it up again and you’ll be right back where you started!

You are both as bad as each other. Neither of you know how to communicate with each other at all. You just both play stupid games with each other.

Feel sorry for your kids in all this.

@Rinoachicken
You are right. Reading that I can see it.
However, things are ticking over okay.
And realistically what can I do when we are stuck hundreds of miles from home??

And I do know how to.communicate. Im an excellent communicator. I will happi li y sit and chat and work through anything
But what good is it if the other person wont talk back?

This came up on another thread but there’s research that can predict with 90% accuracy whether a couple will divorce and SO much of it is related to how couples fight. Emotional withdrawal and the absence of positive affect during conflict discussions (shared humor, affection, empathy), predict divorce 16.2 years after marriage. So, exactly how you’ve both been acting all holiday. Good luck.

@RightYesButNo

This came up on another thread but there’s research that can predict with 90% accuracy whether a couple will divorce and SO much of it is related to how couples fight. Emotional withdrawal and the absence of positive affect during conflict discussions (shared humor, affection, empathy), predict divorce 16.2 years after marriage. So, exactly how you’ve both been acting all holiday. Good luck.

Ok.So what do I do? I'm willing to do what I can to save us. I love him I'm generally very happy with my life Have a long shared history Shared interests, like spending time tighter with DC Mostly similar outlooks on life.

You said yourself it’s how arguments are dealt with or rather how he doesn’t deal with them. I’m not in your house or your marriage so it’s impossible for me to say, but can I recommend that instead of having any more discussion over whatever the prior issue was, you have that talk about how you argue (maybe that’s what you were indicating you were going to do?), and you need to be prepared for him to bring up complaints about how you argue, too, without getting defensive either. This is a very difficult type of discussion to have without the benefit of a counselor, because you’re talking about patterns that have probably become engrained over years. But if you know which ones are the most dangerous (did you look at the graphic and see the list of the “Four Horsemen?” While they can kill young marriages, they’re dangerous for all marriages), and you can both commit to not doing them during arguments, it could help a lot, I think. But the problem is that you both have to be completely willing to give each other a clean slate to start this. Do you think you can just lay aside whether he “ruined” part of the holiday, or if he was wrong, or if he’s stonewalled in the past? Can he do the same for you? Then you need a plan for the future after your discussion. My husband and I do this: if we have an argument and someone is getting really het up, to the point they might raise their voice or name call or stonewall or do something else hurtful, we stop and ask for a 30 minute recess apart. We each go to separate parts of the house and do something we want that requires focus and we don’t keep picking at it or winding ourselves up. It’s giving yourself time for the “fight or flight” response to come back down. 30 minutes later, we try talking again, without those feelings of stressful anger. We might still be angry, but we’re not in a rage at that point and we’re able to communicate better without making it personal. If you still don’t think you can discuss it after 30 minutes without personal attacks or using unhealthy methods, then you or he needs to say, “I need a bit more time but I know we need to discuss to today.” The key is to let the rage go BUT not let it become avoidance. Try to at least talk about it a bit before you’re both too tired for the night, whatever “it” (the disagreement) is, even if you have to continue another day. I mean, those are my starters and they’ve kept us from divorce for quite a while.

@RightYesButNo
Yes this is what I'm thinking
Its not the arguments
They are usually very trivial
Like unsaid hes a good man really
Only does stuff for us as a family
But I literally cannot cope the way he deals with any issues.
Just leaving it for a couple of days, doesnt make it go away!!
Equally I think he will say that I go on. And dont let things go.

You sound similar to my dh and me. We can both be defensive and are sensitive to criticism. He gets sarcastic and says stupid things when he feels attacked. Arguing with him is like banging your head against a brick wall.
We do a lot really well together though.
We basically try to avoid arguments.
Not knowing what your dh did originally and how it escalated we can’t see how it may have gone down a different path but I agree with taking a time out. A bit of alone time can make it easier for the person to reflect.

It's really worth reading through the Four Horsemen idea by John Gottman, you basically have to have lots more positive interactions than negative ones, and avoid certain really destructive patterns (e.g. sarcasm). It's doable.

I don't know why everyone is telling you your marriage is over! Every long marriage I know has times were you don't get on, indeed sometimes don't even like each other, but the potential is there to improve communication and even fall in love again. You sound like you both want to make it work, but are quite stubborn. Get the Gottman book for starters and start thinking- how are we going to shore things up for the future and actually have some fun and love together.

I think there's all to play for here!

www.amazon.co.uk/Seven-Principles-Making-Marriage-Work/dp/184188295X/ref=asc_df_184188295X/?hvlocphy=1006707&linkCode=df0&hvptwo&psc=1&hvnetw=g&hvadid=310973726618&hvpone&hvlocint&hvpos&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl&hvqmt&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&hvtargid=pla-530715812110&hvrand=4110890422351954581

Thanks
Will definitely look. Thanks for the positive take as I was beginning to see on li y doom and gloom!!