Afghanistan

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More US troops killed today than over the last 4 years . Pulling put has cost more deaths of US troops than staying there.
Afghans now being slaughtered.
Massive fail from Biden following Trumps pull out.

Very, very 😔

@Brighterblighter

Plan your comments don't make sense in the frame of Bidens own comments.

There will be more saigon, taliban won't be running wild everywhere..

In July, Biden presented a false impression of what to expect with the troop pullout Trump had negotiated. All the US Presidents and allies since 2001 weren’t truthful to the public that they were losing.

@AlternativePerspective

I was in Afghanistan in the 1970s so I do have an interest in that part of the world. My feeling is that the west should never have got involved in a country which is deeply traditional and tribal attempting to impose our forms of government. We are wise to get our people out asap. this. We should never have gone in there, or Iraq. The West is far too obsessed with deciding how other countries should be, just like us, and invariably when we go in it fails.

Iraq has never been as unstable than when we went in there. Whatever we thought of Saddam Hussein, the country was far more stable under him than the west.

The Afghans want the Taliban in force. Of course there are going to be those who want to get out, but the media will show us what they want us to see, the fact the Taliban moved back into power within days is very clear proof that they were never really out of power in the first place. We should never have gone in there.

As for Pen Farthing, he had clearance for him and his staff to leave the country on Friday, but they held off because of the animals. If any of those people are killed he is personally responsible, because they all stayed because of a load of bloody dogs and cats. He’s a disgrace, but he makes a nice media presence because he talks about cute animals, and everyone loves a cute animal. And now people are going to die because of him.

He has brought 200 cats and dogs back and left his staff. He's an absolute arsehole and I don't know why MN seem to love him so much; oh yes I do, he's a handsome ex-military white man.

I have great respect for the military by the way and this is not a reflection on the institution.

If that’s true and he actually has brought the animals and left his staff then he’s the lowest of the low. Going by some of these comments though he’s as cruel and callous as half of mumsnet

Animals are important, but people come first. Every time
.

@Guavaf1sh

If that’s true and he actually has brought the animals and left his staff then he’s the lowest of the low. Going by some of these comments though he’s as cruel and callous as half of mumsnet

if you read the news , he wasnt able to bring his staff , the taliban stopped them and would not allow his staff through , he had no choice to leave them and he was in tears about it , he wanted to bring them ALL. that was the point . the taliban are preventing people leaving , they dont want afghans leaving . insead of posting stupid comments like this maybe read the news first . and yes he is regarded as something of a hero , hes dedicated the last few years of his life to living in that country , helping stray animals and also helping afghans , one of his vets is afghanistans first , why dont you get off your butt and go live in india or pakistan , working with the poor and helping them , before you shoot your mouth of on here slating a man you have never even met , just following on the trite rubbish about oh he only cares about animals .

@GladAllOver

Animals are important, but people come first. Every time .

I read he had military assistance to get the animals through. The poor people who will die, be tortured, raped because no one could go and help them.

He’s got the animals out. He tried to get his people out but they were not permitted through the airport. They were stopped the first time and this time. Which is tragic. He’s running an animal shelter not the airport or the country.

Bland the taliban or even Biden for Pen not being able to bring the staff.
He had his whole convoy within the grounds of the airport but they were turned away as Biden had changed the rules and they were not allowed through.
Next day he tried again but the taliban wouldn’t let Afghanistan nationals though the road blocks and into the airport. His staff urged him to leave alone and with as many animals as he could take as they would be safer if he wasn’t with them.

Pen cannot be blamed for leaving as if he stayed with them he would be putting them at greater risk for having a westerner with them. He did everything possible to get them out as well but if the taliban wouldn’t allow them to the airport what was he to do?
And the first attempt were he got them to the airport as was turned away due to Bidens rule changes how is that his fault?

the uk goverment has said that the final flight is today for evacs , they could extend it a further day or so , they have admitted some will be left brhind , but have said something had prevented them coming ,rather than a failure in processing . if eligible afghans to come here were prevented from getting into the airport sadly theres not much anyone can do ,and its not the fault of pen farthing , or the cats and dogs that everybody seems to be convinced is somehow taking the place of refuges , or stopping them getting through , even pens staff were stopped and prevented from leaving
the taliban have already made a statemnet a few days ago stating they did not intend to be allowing ordinary afghans to leave unless they had relevent paperwork , visas , biden has changed the rulings on visas , which affected pen when he first went to the airport .
i do wish commenters on here could somehow comprehend the poor people who will die , be raped and tortured is not down to the cats and dogs who got to leave , its really not hard is it .

one of his vets is afghanistans first I'm not sure what that means? One of the vets working for him was the first vet in Afghanistan or one of the vets he's supposed to have trained was the first vet in Afghanistan?

@chaosrabbitland

the uk goverment has said that the final flight is today for evacs , they could extend it a further day or so , they have admitted some will be left brhind , but have said something had prevented them coming ,rather than a failure in processing . if eligible afghans to come here were prevented from getting into the airport sadly theres not much anyone can do ,and its not the fault of pen farthing , or the cats and dogs that everybody seems to be convinced is somehow taking the place of refuges , or stopping them getting through , even pens staff were stopped and prevented from leaving the taliban have already made a statemnet a few days ago stating they did not intend to be allowing ordinary afghans to leave unless they had relevent paperwork , visas , biden has changed the rulings on visas , which affected pen when he first went to the airport . i do wish commenters on here could somehow comprehend the poor people who will die , be raped and tortured is not down to the cats and dogs who got to leave , its really not hard is it .

If military time was taken up helping get him and his cats and dogs through rather than helping get get people out then yes the cats and dogs getting to leave will have prevented some people leaving.

If the taliban are not letting afgan nationals though the check points then how do you expect the British army to be helping them?

If the taliban are not letting afgan nationals through the check points who is Pen supposed to rescue instead of the cats and dogs?

@Proudboomer

If the taliban are not letting afgan nationals though the check points then how do you expect the British army to be helping them?

If the taliban are not letting afgan nationals through the check points who is Pen supposed to rescue instead of the cats and dogs?

I couldn't care less who Pen rescues, I think he's caused a load of hassle for the military this last couple of weeks, he must have caused terrible distress to the animals who were in vans for hours in the heat and hearing gun fire and explosions, he swore he wasn't leaving without his staff and he has.

I feel for the people left behind who should have got out, I feel for families here who know their loved ones are in danger but see cats and dogs being prioritised.

It is sick.

I think it’s sad. Very sad. And very frightening for the people there. But there are so many countries world wide who breach human rights, and treat their people alien to our way of life in the west. There are children and women being exploited in other countries, other than Afghanistan. We just can’t step in and remove all these unfortunate people, because it’s just absolutely impractical to do so. We should negotiate having people in these countries who can help from within, and so keep communication open with the outside world. We can’t solve the problems of every single country, no matter how much we may want to.

If the taliban are not letting afgan nationals through the check points who is Pen supposed to rescue instead of the cats and dogs? nobody. If military time was taken up to rescue a load of animals which are being brought here to add to an already over-stretched rescue system then clearly people may have died because of that mission.

The man is loathsome, but obviously people are blinded by the sight of cats and dogs being brought out of the country so he’ll get a hero’s welcome.

@Livelovebehappy

I think it’s sad. Very sad. And very frightening for the people there. But there are so many countries world wide who breach human rights, and treat their people alien to our way of life in the west. There are children and women being exploited in other countries, other than Afghanistan. We just can’t step in and remove all these unfortunate people, because it’s just absolutely impractical to do so. We should negotiate having people in these countries who can help from within, and so keep communication open with the outside world. We can’t solve the problems of every single country, no matter how much we may want to.

That's precisely why there were priorities. As it stands the translators and guards who worked for the British haven't all got out, they and their families are in danger and they had a right to expect to be prioritised.

We could never have got millions out and millions are in danger but we failed to protect the people we owed protection to.

I just cannot get my head around desperate people and their children watching while animals are loaded onto a plane. The idea is heartbreaking.

The animal optics are not great, but you can't transport people in a hold.

Stepup yes I realise that. I know it wasn't either or but it's still distressing to think about.

I find it really distasteful that so meany people who are safe at home in the U.K. are happy to be so judgemental of someone who has found themselves caught up in the middle of the situation in Afghanistan. Whether you agree or disagree with the rescuing of animals, I just can’t see how those safe at home feel comfortable with the level of character assassination of Pen Farthing. The man was doing his best for those he was responsible for under threat of death or worse.

It shouldn’t really surprise me. I’m a history teacher and everyone always seems to think that they would have been a member of the resistance if they’d been in Europe in 1940. People have cognitive biases that make them think that they would make perfect, rational decisions in circumstances that they can’t even imagine finding themselves in. People also massively overestimate their own bravery. The reality is most people keep their head down and avoid conflict and prioritise their own safety and that of their immediate family. If the majority of people weren’t like that authoritarian regimes would be easily overthrown and would never last, as they are always massively outnumbered by those they terrorise.

@AlternativePerspective: The man is loathsome, but obviously people are blinded by the sight of cats and dogs being brought out of the country so he’ll get a hero’s welcome.

If you're talking about Farthing with this comment, you need to stop. he isn't loathsome at all. You are joining the character assassination of this man.

@MadameMinimes . Quite.

For those who can't be bothered to find out the facts directly, here's a handy news article. Farthing's attempts to rescue his staff have been blocked at every turn. He's been forced to leave them behind, and I'm guessing he's gutted. If a former marine can't get his staff out, what chance does anyone else have??

metro.co.uk/2021/08/28/nowzad-pen-farthing-forced-to-leave-afghan-staff-behind-as-he-escapes-with-animals-15167441/

This is just one example of how a couple managed to get out of Afghanistan. Some people here are showing a terrible lack of understanding of a very difficult situation.

: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58345901

@Odisia

I just cannot get my head around desperate people and their children watching while animals are loaded onto a plane. The idea is heartbreaking.

It is shit, I agree. Sadly, that was the only way Farthing thought he could get his staff out. The American rescue is still trying to find cargo space for their dogs... with the staff outside the airport with the cats.

The situation is only going to get worse when the poor sods desperate to get out realise that the planes have stopped. I'm trying to not cry, because I can't translate and help if I can't see. Sometimes, I wish I *couldn't read arabic script.

we failed to protect the people we owed protection to.

It's a absolutely awful but it's also nothing new. We've been doing that to people here - British and foreign born migrants both - for many years, and on another level during the pandemic. Eg vulnerable care home residents, vulnerable disabled people (the UN several years ago condemned the UK's treatment of the disabled).

As for the vulnerable homeless. Everyday we fail in our duty to protect them. Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, is reportedly looking to house Afghan refugees in council housing. London has 165,000 very vulnerable homeless people. It's the capital of homelessness. Yes, Afghan refugees need help and we should help them. But so should we help and safely house vulnerable people already in the UK (including migrants). It seems a bit ridiculous (and to an extent, immoral) to house new refugees in London - when there are 165,000 people already in such desperate need.

We cannot talk about doing the right thing when vulnerable disabled people, single mums, low income families, and vulnerable victims of domestic violence and rape are turned away from London councils, denied help, left homeless or shipped out of London far away from their families, communities, and support networks. Of all the places in the UK, London is the least suitable - due to its very serious public health homelessness emergency.

We should be helping Afghan refugees. But we should also be helping our own vulnerable (that includes migrants already here). I don't get why we're doing the former but not the latter.

I wondered how long it would take for this thread to descend into another Pen Farthing character assassination. It's depressing.
I'm absolutely heartbroken and devastated for Pen Farthing's staff, and for everyone in Afghanistan who desperately wanted to leave, who'll be left behind. Some of whom must feel so utterly betrayed, if they helped the allies. We have a moral duty to protect them now.
But why this Vendetta against Pen Farthing? He clearly tried his absolute best to get them out. As well as wanting to save 150 or so other Afghans on his chartered plane. He Refused to abandon them (his staff) though he could have left alone days ago. We don't know what happened at the eleventh hour, so we cannot judge. But if we're distraught at the thought of his staff and families being left, imagine how he feels? Apparently they were family to him.
I understand emotion is high at the moment. It is for me too. But much of the anger is misplaced.
I'm really curious about the psychology of so many people venting their anger at a good man? @MadameMinimes gave some good insight.
I guess we all process agonising emotions differently.
Anyway, I'm not criticising anyone on this thread, as I know we're all feeling so sad. But just needed to emote myself too.
I think the last few days in Kabul airport, and Afghanistan generally, have been some of the darkest I've ever known in my lifetime. So much intolerable suffering, that we feel so helpless to relieve, much as we long to