to not understand why my mum does this

[suspiria777]

My mum, in her mid sixties, is kind of a nightmare when it comes to stirring/enabling among my siblings and dad (parents been separated for years). It seems like she tries to create drama/cause problems/look for reasons to get upset (or, alternatively, play "rescuer"), but it's most obvious, to me, with how she acts towards my sister.

My sister, early 30s, is anorexic. She has been anorexic for nearly 20 years. She's been hospitalised a few times, in and out of treatment, some suicide attempts, self harm etc. bla bla bla. She's had some periods of relative wellness and others of very acutely medically serious illness, but for the last five years or so she's been stable BUT still extremely disordered and extremely underweight. Her weight is around 38-40kg and she's average height . She is very good at pretending to be happy and "normal" in front of family and we haven't seen much of her since covid anyway but it's clear from her weight and various things going on in her life that she's not actually fine.

Anyway, my mum has a habit of approaching DSis and asking her if she wants XYZ item of clothing my mum has ordered online and doesn't like or doesn't quite fit into. Mum's a size 12 with a typical middle aged woman who has had several children shape. For the avoidance of doubt, DSis is smaller than the smallest sizes you can get on ASOS or anywhere, has no boobs, no butt, no hips, no belly. It's not like she asks me if I want them, even though I'm a size 8-10 and have a more similar style to my mum. TO BE CLEAR: I'm not aggrieved that my mum never offers me her unwanted items! I'm just perplexed as to why she KEEPS approaching my sister in this way as if to suggest they're almost the same size.

Whenever this happens, DSis will send me eye rolly screenshots of their text conversations, but she has also told me that it seems like mum is trying to upset her by implying she's bigger than she is -- and even though we can joke about it together ("typical mum" "got another bingo" type thing), I know that this stuff DOES upset her.

What the hell is mum thinking?

Other times she's given DSis birthday presents of diet books or other like, diet/food paraphernalia -- think food scales or spiraliser rather than a kitchenaid or a fondue set. She will also ALWAYS comment on what DSis is eating, if she is eating.

Obviously, after decades of this I don't expect she is going to change her ways. And DSis is "used to it" to some extent, and has her coping mechanisms -- to an extent. But it pisses ME off! And I know it does affect Sis too.

All i'm wondering is: why is she like this? What on earth is she thinking?
I'm not very good at imagining other people's motives, admittedly, but I'm totally clueless about what she's trying to achieve. Is there a charitable interpretation for her doing things seemingly deliberately to trigger my sister's eating disorder?

Gaaah.. she’s my mother too. (Luckily mine is dead now and can’t get to my DD’s.)

@Imnewhere1991

But I still understood the difference between right and wrong. It's not rocket science. I was 17 and alone supporting my sister with her anorexia. No mum, dad didn't care. I still knew what was right. I didn't make excuses.

It sounds as though you and your dsis were close, which would appear to differ from op and her dsis. I hadn’t realised you were the same poster, who said you looked after your dsis from 17. Your parents for whatever reason either didn’t try or didn’t succeed to divide and conquer in the same way as op’s parents have done.

My upbringing was so controlling that I wouldn’t have known I was allowed at 17 to intervene in something like this and would have totally been subsumed by my mother’s manipulation.

It may be shocking to you op has behaved in the way. But that doesn’t make it her fault. Her mother seems to have a way of turning everything around so that she believes the lies and guilting her. This sort of parenting is a total mind fuck.

Your mum does sound abusive and narcissistic and possibly with eating issues of her own.

My Dm was the same. Always buying me clothes that were (in my case) too small. Telling me how fat/thin I was. Comparing her and me - and even buying clothes that were the same as mine. I constantly had to reassure her about her weight. Or get told how fat I was.

She sounds awful. Does your sister's therapist know all of this? presumably she'd tell her to cut contact?

Why does she do this? Your mother is damaged and she in turn has damaged your sister (and probably you too). Read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward if you want to start understanding what your mother is and how this has affected both of you.

My sympathy OP, I also have a very damaged mother and can relate to a lot in your posts.

My blood boils reading this. I have an anorexic sister. We happen to have a critical mother - critical of our looks and personalities, and happy to humiliate us for a laugh. Hysterical victim, if she is challenged in any way. I have no doubts where my sister's problems stem from. You sound like a lovely sister OP.

Not to anywhere near the same extent, but my DM and DGM do this sort of thing. They'll attempt to pass on clothing to me and then casually mention that "oh they're far too big for me, I thought they might suit you better". It's part of a range of actions which have meant that, even at my thinnest (no eating disorders, just thinner before kids and middle age) they still had a way of making me feel utterly enormous. It's an awful feeling.

Of course, if you call them on it you're "reading too much into things". My DM's favourite comment is "you were always far too sensitive".

I would definitely think about going low to NC; I'm sure your DMs passive aggressive emotional abuse isn't restricted to her behaviour towards your DSis.

I'd guess as your sister is relatively well at the moment your mother is missing the feeling of importance she gets from 'rescuing' your sister. I bet she misses blabbing to everyone how much she does for your sister.

Your mother is cruel.

I'd focus on your relationship with your sister and both distance yourself as much as possible from your mother. The best way to deal with this toxic behaviour is limit your exposure. I'm so sorry OP she treats you and your sister this way.

Your mother is a narcissist and will not change.
Your sister needs to limit contact with her to protect her mental health ,
No question about it

It is depressing how many of us with anorexia / siblings with anorexia have a mother like this - mine is the same. She'll also buy clothes for me and make sure to tell me she has the receipt as she'll probably need to change them as they'll be too small.

This really upset me. I have a history of ED and now several people with anorexia including one who died. As I’m sure you know it has the highest mortality rate of any mental illness.

What your mum is doing is dangerous and frankly psychotic. I’m amazed nobody has pulled her up on it. As your sister can’t defend herself (she’s locked into a 13 year old mindset when it comes to food issues) and your dad isn’t going to I do think you have a responsibility to say something to your mum.

Aside from how she responds I would tell her how it makes you feel when you hear these things. Be vulnerable. Say it scares you and you’re certain it upsets your sister but don’t speak for her (she told me x, y and z). Ask her why she does it and make it clear that you understand she may have a good motive but you can’t understand what it is. Don’t let her laugh it off. Sometimes people can be shamed into acting better.

@Imnewhere1991

OP why are you ignoring posts asking why YOU haven't intervened. It is all very well us confirming your mum is emotionally abusive, but do you and your dad just sit back, for TEN YEARS, not saying anything, then casually wondering whether it might have played a part..I'm sorry but you haven't helped your sister. I'd do anything for my sister.

You're right. I mean. It's actually closer to twenty than ten years, so I'm maybe even worse than you thought.

When Dsis first got ill, I was about 9. I didn't really understand enough about what was happening. By the time I got to an age where I started thinking perhaps my mum was hurting more than helping, DSis had gone away to university and by the time I went to uni she was about to finish her MA and come back home... So, again, I wasn't really present to understand/witness/challenge except at xmases etc. And Xmas has never been a nice time in our family, and my mum has been very good at portraying my sister/her ED as "ruining" it -- and when you're 9 or 10 and your older sister is having a shit fit about puff pastry and your mum is crying, that's a very easy story to believe.

It's not until the last few years, and particularly since covid has enforced some boundaries (and also i've grown much closer to Dsis, as she has been able to engage with more that just "anorexic stuff" as she's been more stable) that things have started to become clearer to me. But I do still have that automatic mum voice going "well, sorry for breathing! I won't do anything for you ever again if that's how you feel!"

You have never spoken with you mother about this because * No... she interprets all criticism (or questioning) as an attack*

Er… who cares about her feelings.

You are close and care for your sister
You are not with your mother
Your priority should be your sister
Get involved. Speak with your mother. And tell her point blank not to be so insensitive and that she potentially contributing to her daughters early demise

@Wannakisstheteacher

Anyone who buys an anorexic food scales is a fucking monster. That’s it.

This 100%

I’m so sorry you and your sister ended up with a mother like this. You both deserve better.

My feeling is that it is unlikely you will ever get her to recognise or change her behaviour you and your sister would be better off putting your energies into your response to her, rather than into trying to make her realise the error or her ways.

Counselling is often touted as an answer to everything on MN, but I do think that if you and your sister haven’t already tried family therapy it would be useful for the two of you to give it a shot.

I don't think you should feel it was your responsibility to set your mother right. You're aware now of how bizarre and damaging her behaviour is. That isn't possible as a child and takes a long time to see through.

I'd see if you could see a therapist yourself as it's not just your sister who was impacted.

But yeah your mum's behaviour is text book narcisst and I would seriously think about what relationship is possible with her.

@Marni83

You have never spoken with you mother about this because * No... she interprets all criticism (or questioning) as an attack*

Er… who cares about her feelings.

You are close and care for your sister
You are not with your mother
Your priority should be your sister
Get involved. Speak with your mother. And tell her point blank not to be so insensitive and that she potentially contributing to her daughters early demise

It's not exactly about caring about her feelings; it's more about the impossibility of having a reasonable or productive conversation with her because she refuses to listen and is prone to dramatic weeping as soon as she think she might not be able to control a situation or its narrative.

@suspiria777 there are clearly a few posters on here who have never worked with or been subjected to a family system that has 1. Got some sort of struggle with power and control 2. A dysfunction in the parent/child relationship and 3. A severe mental health issue. Until they have lived experience of that many layers of psychological pressure or have undertaken years of training to try work with/support those families, they just can not understand. You have lived with all three. So have I. And I have trained in social work and family therapy as a result to try 'fix' myself.

To those posters saying the OP should have done more, I am curious why you feel that responsibility weighs on the OP to provide a solution to a complex, entrenched issue in a whole family? One person who has their own shit to deal with can not solve or deal with this alone. In narrative/systemic family therapy they say 'The problem is the problem' and the focus is on changing that, not making it one person's fault/responsibility/issue. OP - you are not the problem. This isn't all on you to fix.

The OP is posting to try process issues in her family and childhood. Berating her for her responses to complex family dysfunction (when she was 9 to start with) is primarily not fair and secondly, why do you as a complete stranger, need to berate someone for a situation that you have a tiny glimpse into? The OP is the expert on her family dynamic and their issues, not you. You don't know what you don't know and you are filling in gaps, why position yourself as the 'expert' saying 'I did x, y, and z' and 'You should do x, y and z'? You have made the OP defensive and under attack, exactly how her mother makes her feel, and that is not helpful.

OP - if you would like some practical help trying to understand what is going on I wonder if reading up on family scripts and circular questioning might support you? I would start small and slow but remember, you may not have the tools to fix this, psychiatrists with 30 years experience don't always intervene effectively. If you can never intervene that is okay, but reading might make you feel more informed and able to formulate how YOU feel about it and what you want. Take good care of yourself

So what if she weeps?
Treat her as you would a horrible stranger.
If her weeping makes things uncomfortable/ awkward just leave/ put the phone down.

Help your sister!

I think she probably is well aware that approaching the subject t is impossible so skirts around it. Diet books because she is trying to buy what she thinks your sis will use. Clothes because they are “spare” rather than offering to buy and your sis saying no.
I have an anorexia child… your mother doesn’t sound quite the “horror” as some on here are saying. As a parent .. it is impossible to broach the subject … going around it is clumsy at best.

I think you will also benefit from some counselling OP, as it's impossible to come out of a childhood like that unscathed. Even as a golden child. The effects won't be as obvious or dangerous as your sister's anorexia , but they will be there .

The reasons why she's doing this are not benign, and thus irrelevant. You will never be able to understand it or change her. Both you and your sister need to understand and accept that and the fact that she will never be who you need her to be. Covid has shown you both that the less your mum is in your lives , the better they are. Take reassurance from this. It really is her and not either of you. Build on it and keep contact to a minimum. It sounds like you're both still stuck in the FOG (fear,obligation,guilt) and trying very hard to navigate your life and feelings while managing her. It's exhausting and toxic.

You don't owe her anything. You do owe it to yourselves though to have the best life you can and hopefully heal.

I had an eating disorder in my teens and twenties, fortunately completely recovered. My mother was definitely a factor. She sounds like yours. There's no way she would change her behaviour, she is always the victim, so the choice is distancing yourselves from her or healing yourself enough to completely laugh it off (I tried both and am comfortably in the latter these days). Even as a 70 something year old woman she's obsessed with her weight and every meal I have with her she says things like 'I can't believe you're going to eat all that' and sends photos to my siblings of me eating with '79 is stuffing her gullet again'. I am completely healthy and a normal weight, so all I do is eye roll and enjoy my slice of cake!

*lmnewhere1991

OP why are you ignoring posts asking why YOU haven't intervened. It is all very well us confirming your mum is emotionally abusive, but do you and your dad just sit back, for TEN YEARS, not saying anything, then casually wondering whether it might have played a part..I'm sorry but you haven't helped your sister. I'd do anything for my sister.

"You're right. I mean. It's actually closer to twenty than ten years, so I'm maybe even worse than you thought."*

@Imnewhere1991 You're not exactly displaying much evidence of the wonderful, compassionate person you claim to be towards OP, who has also experienced the negative childhood here are you? As pp said horrible victim blaming from you.
@suspiria777 ignore the nastiness from posts like that and know that the majority of posters recognise that you are also likely to be caught up in your DMs poor behaviour.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

I think you will also benefit from some counselling OP, as it's impossible to come out of a childhood like that unscathed. Even as a golden child. The effects won't be as obvious or dangerous as your sister's anorexia , but they will be there .

The reasons why she's doing this are not benign, and thus irrelevant. You will never be able to understand it or change her. Both you and your sister need to understand and accept that and the fact that she will never be who you need her to be. Covid has shown you both that the less your mum is in your lives , the better they are. Take reassurance from this. It really is her and not either of you. Build on it and keep contact to a minimum. It sounds like you're both still stuck in the FOG (fear,obligation,guilt) and trying very hard to navigate your life and feelings while managing her. It's exhausting and toxic.

You don't owe her anything. You do owe it to yourselves though to have the best life you can and hopefully heal.

All of this. Wishing you and your sister all the best OP

In sorry, that did come across more intense than I'd have liked. Sorry OP. It's just because I've had a sister with anorexia and I would stop anyone in their tracks who would say anything that could make the situation worse. Perhaps because we are twins, I have that instinctual reaction. In no way am I blaming you OP and I'm sorry if it appears that way. I get a bit passionate about eating disorders, but that anger is directed at my family, not you.

Ah actually what @SafeMove said, much more succinctly.

So sorry for your situation.

Can I just clarify that a few posters suggested Munchausen syndrome by proxy. This is not that. That is made up illness. This sister has anorexia which is very very real.