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Original poster

To tell friend she she shouldn't use these words?

404 replies

Clawdy · 26/08/2021 08:35

Book group meeting last week, and one group member said she couldn't remember the name of a book she'd thought of choosing, but it was about two coloured girls and their halfcaste children. I said "Anne, you can't use those words" and she said "Why not, what words are you saying I should use?" I said "Black and mixed race" whereupon she said " Well, a mix of black and white is grey, should I say that?" and grinned at me uneasily. I turned away and started talking to someone else. Another member later said I had probably upset her, and maybe should have ignored her comments. What do you think? She was being racist, wasn't she? But I'd never heard her say anything like that in all the years I've known her.

OP posts:
AlfonsoTheMango · 26/08/2021 11:30

@GoodbyePorpoiseSpit

The book club has at least two racist members taking full advantage of their white supremacy. What are you going to do about it? I suggest ‘Why I’m no longer talking to white people about race’ as the next book you all discuss - it might help!
Steady on.
DoggyMumma · 26/08/2021 11:30

I agree terminology has changed over the years, in terms of how we describe or refer to people- race and other aspects of life.

I don't think it's difficult to keep up though. It doesn't change every five minutes and what does it cost anyone to stop using language now seen as offensive or outdated.
I'd be surprised if it's never been pointed out to her in the past at some point though if she's used terms like half caste. Particularly in her job.

Spidey66 · 26/08/2021 11:30

@MrsLargeEmbodied

i dont think half caste was a term of abuse, it is simply non pc
I think back in the 70s when people used it, Joe Bloggs didn't mean it as a term of abuse. They were just ignorant of where it came from and the racist undertones it had. Things are different now, we have a lot more knowledge and access to information via the internet. I think this was what MrsLargeEmbodied means.

I would have use the term as a child, not knowing the implications of it, as would my parents,without knowing it was a racist term. With today's knowledge I certainly wouldn't.

JudgeJ · 26/08/2021 11:31

@Blueleah

Depends how old she is. The politically correct words change so often it’s hard to keep up. Maybe 20 years ago it was pc to say coloured and half caste, you weren’t allowed to say black.
This is what I feel, at 73 the 'correct' terminology has changed so often, I'm often unsure of this week's acceptable words. A number of non-white friends have said exactly the same!
deathbyprocrastination · 26/08/2021 11:33

Jeez, I can't believe what is being classified as 'wokeness' here

Spidey66 · 26/08/2021 11:33

I find it difficult to understand how a teacher in her 60s could not see these terms as offensive, even if she worked in a totally undiverse area like the Hebrides or somewhere. She must know.

AutistGoth · 26/08/2021 11:34

Her follow up comment demonstrates that she knew she was in the wrong and the wicked grin was trying to make YOU feel like the unreasonable one for standing up to her.

As a teenager, I remember being at the pub with my dad and his friends and one of these friends told a racist joke: one relating to the genitalia of a Black man. I can't remember precisely what I said but I made it clear that I was unimpressed by this joke. I saw my dad, sitting opposite me, waving his index finger in a "no" gesture. Later, when we were going home, my dad said to me that it was best to just say nothing with that person because he wasn't going to change, might turn nasty and I would alienate the others.

Nowadays, I would have said to my dad something like: "They should be alienated if they find racially offensive jokes funny!" But I was 15 or so and not in a good place at the time. I spent the next few hours sobbing into my pillow.

You did right to call this person out, OP. Her reaction tells you everything. I suspect the previous poster who tied it in with her former career and not used to being told off may be correct. I've seen evidence of such things (thankfully not related to race) myself. Thankfully, it's only a select few, not a general rule.

Areyouseriousrightnow · 26/08/2021 11:35

@AdmiralCain

Oh how I love all the mumsnetters turning on each other to see who is the high priestess of wokeness.
How I love that it only seems to be when it comes to offensive terms pertaining to race or colour, people are being ‘woke’ and ‘self- congratulatory’ when these are addressed. Do you also think it’s ‘woke’ to not want people to use offensive terms relating to disabilities? Weight? Sexuality?

We don’t debate offensive terms related to any of these things, but when it’s race it’s suddenly a grey area.

Spidey66 · 26/08/2021 11:38

@Karmagoat

I always use the term mixed race nowadays, however one of my best friends (who is actually mixed race, white mum, black dad) hates the term, and refers to himself as half caste. Maybe it is a generation thing? We are in our late 40s so obviously when we were younger half caste was widely used. I personally wouldn't use it now (even though it pisses my friend off lol)
See I'm older than you (mid 50s) and I havent heard the phrase used since I was about 10 or 11. Not sure if it's because I've always lived in London so obviously in a diverse area. Obviously I believe you but I'm surprised your friend isn't offended!!!
HighPriestessOfWokeness · 26/08/2021 11:39

@deathbyprocrastination

Jeez, I can't believe what is being classified as 'wokeness' here
Right?

Posters see others use "woke" and want to join in, flinging it left right and center where it doesn't belong just to feel 'oh so edgy and cleverer than thou'.

ManifestDestinee · 26/08/2021 11:41

What the "wrong term" is, depends on who you are talking to, some of the time.
Just from this thread we see people confidently declaring what the "correct term" is, and either getting it wrong or being told that the people they are talking about don't like that term.

While it can be easy to see when someone has said something they really shouldn't, telling them what to use instead is not simple.

memberofthewedding · 26/08/2021 11:42

You should have taken your friend on one side and explained to her that these expressions are not considered acceptable today, rather than humiliating her in front of a group. Correcting someone publicly is just as unacceptable as what your friend did. No wonder she was upset.

HighPriestessOfRighteousness · 26/08/2021 11:42

@DottyHarmer

Cross post with the “high priestess” !
Great minds innit?🙄
ChaneySays · 26/08/2021 11:42

@vivainsomnia

That in itself is racist, whether intentional or not This reminded me of something that happened last year in the office. One of the girls is always hot on spotting racism, was big on the black matters movement, offended that most of us didn't want to march, and pointed at one team member who has used the wrong word, telling the they were racist.

Then a few minutes later, as we were back talking about work, she used the word shit, immediately followed by 'excuse my French'...in front of a member of staff whose parents are French. When I pointed out to her that for someone so tuned to pick up racists amongst us, she might consider practicing what she was preaching. She went berserk, trying to justify it wasn't the same.

I think there are a lot of double standards amongst those who are quick to point out that someone else is racist.

It seems people will often justify racism based on whether or not the group being discriminated against is oppressed. So, for example, it's perfectly acceptable in woke circles to refer to a white middle aged man as 'a gammon', whilst other insults based on skin colour are deemed extremely offensive.
Meraas · 26/08/2021 11:44

Another day, another thread that proves that are still many racists on MN.

Poll above alone shows 24% are racist.

YANBU, OP, well done for challenging her and ignore the racists.

Spidey66 · 26/08/2021 11:46

Honestly....I would link those phrases in with p, n* and w*. I can't even type them out in full, because I'm offended by them and I'm white. They do not exist in my vocab, except in these kinds of discussions.

Obviously I'm aware that some words have been reclaimed by Black people.....like the rap band NWA. Not sure how I feel about that, tbh, but I suppose it's similar to gay people reclaiming the word 'queer' which when I was younger was a derogatory term.

BrozTito · 26/08/2021 11:48

Good luck here. If its not middle class white people being discriminated against it doesnt matter or exist here.

emuloc · 26/08/2021 11:49

@deathbyprocrastination

Jeez, I can't believe what is being classified as 'wokeness' here
These threads always go this way, some random comes wading in saying the magic word. So dull, with the intention of waylaying the conversation.
Areyouseriousrightnow · 26/08/2021 11:49

@Meraas

Another day, another thread that proves that are still many racists on MN.

Poll above alone shows 24% are racist.

YANBU, OP, well done for challenging her and ignore the racists.

This
Blossomtoes · 26/08/2021 11:50

@Hankunamatata

Had a very similar convo with my 80 odd year old parents recently. They were a bit flabbergasted that coloured wasnt an ok term or half caste - they live in very white area.
I remember being told as a child that it was rude to call someone black and coloured was the polite term. I’m old and obviously know better now.

I do find it odd and illogical though that coloured person is considered racist, while person of colour isn’t. To me they both amount to the same thing.

GoodbyePorpoiseSpit · 26/08/2021 11:51

“Correcting someone publicly is just as unacceptable as what your friend did”

No
It isn’t.

Original poster
Clawdy · 26/08/2021 11:55

I honestly didn't think I was " humiliating her" as someone said. I wouldn't have wanted to do that. And she is a very extrovert and forceful personality, and I think she'd have had a go at me if she felt humiliated.

OP posts:
TwinsandTrifle · 26/08/2021 11:57

I think she'd have had a go at me if she felt humiliated

I think that's exactly what happened with the "grey" retort

deathbyprocrastination · 26/08/2021 11:58

@emuloc @HighPriestessOfWokeness yeah, it's just a really lazy way of trivialising and undermining discussions about race. Just as 'I know it's not very PC but' so quickly became the natural segue into some horribly racist comment back in the day

TwinsandTrifle · 26/08/2021 12:00

Then a few minutes later, as we were back talking about work, she used the word shit, immediately followed by 'excuse my French'...in front of a member of staff whose parents are French. When I pointed out to her that for someone so tuned to pick up racists amongst us, she might consider practicing what she was preaching. She went berserk, trying to justify it wasn't the same.

I wouldn't go beserk about it, but it's honestly not the same.