To tell friend she she shouldn't use these words?

[Clawdy]

Book group meeting last week, and one group member said she couldn't remember the name of a book she'd thought of choosing, but it was about two coloured girls and their halfcaste children. I said "Anne, you can't use those words" and she said "Why not, what words are you saying I should use?" I said "Black and mixed race" whereupon she said " Well, a mix of black and white is grey, should I say that?" and grinned at me uneasily. I turned away and started talking to someone else. Another member later said I had probably upset her, and maybe should have ignored her comments. What do you think? She was being racist, wasn't she? But I'd never heard her say anything like that in all the years I've known her.

Absolutely better to appear sanctimonious than having another person sitting quietly seething and assuming you were complicit by not calling her out.

Call racism (casual, accidental, low level or otherwise) out Every Single Time.

French'...in front of a member of staff whose parents are French. When I pointed out to her that for someone so tuned to pick up racists amongst us, she might consider practicing what she was preaching. She went berserk, trying to justify it wasn't the same.

It really isn't the same. The origin of the phrase dates from times when people would use French rather than English to say something that was considered impolite or scandalous, e.g. referring to a demi mondaine rather than a woman whose lifestyle was financed by a rich lover(s). You then apologised for speaking in French rather than English. We still see traces of it today in references to embonpoint rather than curvy or plump.

@BlusteryLake

I do think you need to make allowances for age and context. My mum is nearly 80, and would use those terms in normal conversation because they were the accepted ones for her generation. The lady wasn't insulting anyone directly, so perhaps a gentler mention of how times have changed might have been a better approach.

My mother died five years ago and would have been over 100 if she were still alive. She'd managed to learn that those words weren't acceptable.

@Spidey66 we are both from London too, grew up on rough council estates. I remember people using the term in the 80s.
No it doesn't offend him (not much does to be honest). I have discussed it with him before he says that he is half, half white, half black, so therefore is half caste.
He says all this PC shit (he's words, not mine) pisses him off so I think he does it on purpose. I think he's just a grumpy cynical old bastard

You did the right thing @Clawdy

There's no way she hasn't heard those terms aren't appropriate. She's making a point and a vile one at that. Racism breeds on people continuing to say nothing and ignore it. Glad you didn't!

@GoodbyePorpoiseSpit

“Correcting someone publicly is just as unacceptable as what your friend did”

No
It isn’t.

It is to me. Your opinion is just that, not incontrovertible fact! MN is getting very sanctimonious, with posters thinking that theirs is the only opinion which counts and that it's perfectly okay to tell other adults what they can and cannot say, and to accuse anyone who disagrees with the OP's approach, as being racist.

Correcting someone publicly is just as unacceptable as what your friend did

You think using racist terms is worse than being corrected...? Unfathomable.

it's perfectly okay to tell other adults what they can and cannot say

It's perfectly OK to tell someone they are using racist terms, yes.

That was me with the HighPriestessOfWokeness and HighPriestessOfRighteouseness anyway.

Thanks pp for the new clever names.

@HarrietsChariot

It's mixed heritage. "Mixed race" is an offensive and outdated term in the same way "colored" is. The fact that people of mixed heritage describe themselves as "mixed race" doesn't make it OK - in the past people used "colored" to describe themselves, some people still use the n-word to describe themselves today.

No it isn't

Yeah my mum said 'half caste' about 15 years ago, i said its not used anymore and she stopped. Nobody caught 'wokeism' or turned into Stalinist russia. Btw has anybody ever met somebody who goes on about 'wokeism' unironically who isnt a tedious bellend?

@MrsLargeEmbodied

i dont think half caste was a term of abuse, it is simply non pc

when it was used, it was an accepted polite term. I get that its not acceptable now. Comparison with some of the words used to describe physical conditions that are now considered rude and abusive is not quite right. Those terms went from being medical terms, like arthritis, straight into being abusive words.

Suppose you're all going around referring to 'spa*ics' and 'cripples' then. Lovely people.

I'm disgusted by how many people are trying their absolute hardest to defend Anne. Which would you rather? More people like Anne or more people like OP? The only way forward is to have fewer people like Anne, and fewer racism deniers or excuses, and more people like OP who are willing to challenge unacceptable racist behaviour, regardless of whether the Annes find it a pinch uncomfortable.
As for the poster who said that her racist language being pointed out would just make her say it more, what must it be like in your head?

@BrozTito

Yeah my mum said 'half caste' about 15 years ago, i said its not used anymore and she stopped. Nobody caught 'wokeism' or turned into Stalinist russia. Btw has anybody ever met somebody who goes on about 'wokeism' unironically who isnt a tedious bellend?

Not at all. It's usually the ones falling over themselves trying to win the most unwoke person of the year.

"It is to me. Your opinion is just that, not incontrovertible fact!
MN is getting very sanctimonious, with posters thinking that theirs is the only opinion which counts and that it's perfectly okay to tell other adults what they can and cannot say, and to accuse anyone who disagrees with the OP's approach, as being racist"

Erm...randoms on Mumsnet don't make the guidelines on what is or isn't considered racist.

A colleague of mine ( mid 50s) used this term just the other day ; I told her it was outdated, etc. She then apologised to my (black) husband. Who wasn't even there ! I asked her if she thought only black people are offended my racism? She didn't answer that, but she said she thought the word black / mixed race was worse than coloured.

@Waspsarearseholes

I'm disgusted by how many people are trying their absolute hardest to defend Anne. Which would you rather? More people like Anne or more people like OP? The only way forward is to have fewer people like Anne, and fewer racism deniers or excuses, and more people like OP who are willing to challenge unacceptable racist behaviour, regardless of whether the Annes find it a pinch uncomfortable. As for the poster who said that her racist language being pointed out would just make her say it more, what must it be like in your head?

My name is Anne. I was getting worried there thinking I'd done something wrong

*MrsLargeEmbodied

i dont think half caste was a term of abuse,
it is simply non pc

when it was used, it was an accepted polite term. I get that its not acceptable now. Comparison with some of the words used to describe physical conditions that are now considered rude and abusive is not quite right. Those terms went from being medical terms, like arthritis, straight into being abusive words.*

@godmum56

This was what I was trying to explain, but you did it better. I remember the term being used a lot. It wasn't meant as an insult then, but shouldn't be used now.

Erm...randoms on Mumsnet don't make the guidelines on what is or isn't considered racist.

Has anyone notified the randoms of this fact?

I use the terms, 'White, Black, Mixed, Asian and Chinese if I need to describe someone's colour. It doesn't happen very often.

It covers most bases, is accurate and can't possibly displease anyone.

Racism threads are always a barrel of laughs on Mumsnet. Everything is up for 'debate' on whether or not it is racist until you start a thread asking if the term 'Karen' is racist/misogynist then it's unanimous that even the n-word itself isn't as bad as being called a Karen.

@BrozTito

Suppose you're all going around referring to 'spa*ics' and 'cripples' then. Lovely people.

That’s exactly how my disabled from birth friend describes himself. He professed himself heartbroken when the Spastic Society changed its name because its shop offered him a discount. He’s a man of very dark humour.

I was born in 1991 and half caste was still used when I was in secondary school.

Not sure whether it is a geographical thing, but I was in secondary school in 1991 and it certainly wasn’t appropriate where I lived at that time.

What happened about the book Anne wanted to read and discuss as a group?

That could have been an interesting way to explore the themes and issues around race by using the book to centre your debates.

It's a shame if her suggestion was shut down completely because she used the wrong terminology to describe the main black character.