To tell friend she she shouldn't use these words?

[Clawdy]

Book group meeting last week, and one group member said she couldn't remember the name of a book she'd thought of choosing, but it was about two coloured girls and their halfcaste children. I said "Anne, you can't use those words" and she said "Why not, what words are you saying I should use?" I said "Black and mixed race" whereupon she said " Well, a mix of black and white is grey, should I say that?" and grinned at me uneasily. I turned away and started talking to someone else. Another member later said I had probably upset her, and maybe should have ignored her comments. What do you think? She was being racist, wasn't she? But I'd never heard her say anything like that in all the years I've known her.

As others have said, it's her reaction that says everything. if it had been a genuine mistake (and I guess that's not impossible for someone in their 60s, though I'd be very surprised given that she is an ex-teacher) she would have been apologetic. You definitely don't owe her an apology. I think in an ideal world it's worth talking about why these terms are offensive rather than just instructing people not to use them but I totally understand that in the moment it's often hard to find the right words / approach these conversations in the perfect way.

@MrsLargeEmbodied

i dont think half caste was a term of abuse, it is simply non pc

Of course it is. Half- less than whole. Caste- a section of society (loosely). Half-caste implies that they are half or less than most other people in a society.

@TartanJumper

you know that but not many people who used that term would know that

@MrsLargeEmbodied

i dont think half caste was a term of abuse, it is simply non pc

It doesn't really matter what you think. It was, whether you get that or not.

@VyrnwyGirl this is not a new thing, as many other posters have pointed out. I'm 43 and it's been very clear for a long time that these terms cause offence to many people. I think people often use words they know to be offensive to test the water / needle people and then pretend they had no idea.

according to the article i linked to earlier, even mixed race is misleading
the advice is to use mixed parentage" and "dual heritage".

@ManifestDestinee
It doesn't really matter what you think
thanks

FFS threads about racism on MN are so depressing. So many people jump to excuse or justify the racist language and are more concerned about how the person using the language feels. Assuming that person is white and lives in the UK they have so many privileges and advantages and get to go about their daily life without having to think about race 99% of the time. People who could be offended by the language don't have that luxury.

You were right to correct her for using terminology which has been widely unacceptable and offensive for decades. Her response shows she doesn't care about getting it right anyway.

As for what terms "should" be used, it's clear there's no one single set of vocabulary that everyone is comfortable with. Generally speaking "black" "British Asian" and "people of colour" are broadly accepted but we should all be willing to be corrected if someone is offended by the language we use.

@godmum56 I don’t see anything rude about saying ‘you can’t use those words’ if someone, inadvertently has used offensive language.

In fairness there are many terms that have been used over the years to mean Black, and all have fallen in and out of favour. If you are older I can see how it would become confusing.

I must admit I struggle with the word ‘queer’- even 20 years ago this was a horrible insult. I’d never use it for that reason.

@Rumplestrumpet

FFS threads about racism on MN are so depressing. So many people jump to excuse or justify the racist language and are more concerned about how the person using the language feels. Assuming that person is white and lives in the UK they have so many privileges and advantages and get to go about their daily life without having to think about race 99% of the time. People who could be offended by the language don't have that luxury.

You were right to correct her for using terminology which has been widely unacceptable and offensive for decades. Her response shows she doesn't care about getting it right anyway.

As for what terms "should" be used, it's clear there's no one single set of vocabulary that everyone is comfortable with. Generally speaking "black" "British Asian" and "people of colour" are broadly accepted but we should all be willing to be corrected if someone is offended by the language we use.

Exactly

@VyrnwyGirl

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Do you also use outdated offensive terms to describe those with disabilities? Or those who are overweight? Or is it just a race thing?

but the ex teacher was late 60s,
not late 90s
she Must have known

@Confiscatedpopit
yes Queen is a strange one isnt it.
Queer literature for example

Agree @Rumplestrumpet

i see very little people @Rumplestrumpet forgiving the ex teacher here?

@VyrnwyGirl

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Do you apply that to terms relating to disability and sexuality as well by any chance?

@MrsLargeEmbodied

according to the article i linked to earlier, even mixed race is misleading the advice is to use mixed parentage" and "dual heritage".

I do think these terms have a different meaning to mixed race… and as PP said, everyone has different understandings around race, ethnicity, heritage, but I do think any of these terms are better than using something outdated and offensive.

No it isn't. "Calling out" racism is fine, but it's not effective if you humiliate and embarrass people while doing it. It's not ok, either.

Talk to people, educate them and listen

Again, how did OP do this?
OP said were not supposed to say that.
Woman asked OP what she should say instead.
OP told her.
Woman made a clever retort.
OP said nothing else.
That was it.
How did this go from gently correcting someone to embarrassing, humiliating, calling out and attacking? How is it not the same as talking to someone and educating them? It only has to be done in secret?

As a pp mentioned, having no emotional capability to handle a simple and quick correction because it has to do with race doesn't make OP in the wrong here.

then you risk alienating yourself @VyrnwyGirl let alone insulting people

I mean, I'm now aware of the correct meaning, thanks to this thread. But until today (having never seen it written down) I wouldn't have known there was an E on the end.

I would have thought it was down to a shadow cast on the ground. What with shadows being dark. Which is what my mum thought too.

I'm not uneducated. And I'm mixed race. I didn't know.

I think there's still some things that are very obviously a big no no. And others where it's not so clear. As I said, my friend is furious if someone calls her coloured. If I was with a white friend and someone was describing us, I wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone said "the mixed race lady" or the "coloured lady". I would however, very much dislike the "brown lady" and I can't even explain why. I think the more you tiptoe around someone's colour, the more you highlight it.

Some words that aren't so obvious, you have to use context. An elderly lady saying "oh my, that little coloured girl has the most beautiful hair" is not filled with racist hate. An elderly lady saying "well, you'd expect that behaviour from a coloured person" most certainly is. And in both examples, if you swapped the word coloured, for black, half cast, whatever, the principle doesn't change. What matters is one day, people can just say "that little girl has beautiful hair" without the need to pointlessly add she's not white.

Oh how I love all the mumsnetters turning on each other to see who is the high priestess of wokeness.

I soooo hate the terms “calling out” and “educate”. Who the hell do people think they are? I bet every single one of us has used the wrong term at some point. If someone is merely mistaken and not being malicious then appointing yourself high priestess of righteousness in order to “educate” or even shame them is the height of self-congratulatory behaviour.

Cross post with the “high priestess” !