To tell friend she she shouldn't use these words?

[Clawdy]

Book group meeting last week, and one group member said she couldn't remember the name of a book she'd thought of choosing, but it was about two coloured girls and their halfcaste children. I said "Anne, you can't use those words" and she said "Why not, what words are you saying I should use?" I said "Black and mixed race" whereupon she said " Well, a mix of black and white is grey, should I say that?" and grinned at me uneasily. I turned away and started talking to someone else. Another member later said I had probably upset her, and maybe should have ignored her comments. What do you think? She was being racist, wasn't she? But I'd never heard her say anything like that in all the years I've known her.

'Half-caste' has been a term of abuse/be-littling for many long years - no generation uses it in innocence these days.

The poet John Agard wrote 'Half caste' after his experiences in the 1970s (His mother was Portugese and his father Afro-Guyanan) and it has been taught in school all my own career (1980s and on).

I would be most unhappy to hear her refer to my nephews as 'half' anything. They are complete and whole and perfect :) even when most annoying.

It's a generational thing. My grandmother told me, black people referred to themselves as the n word. It was acceptable a long, long time ago. Until one day, they referred to themselves as coloured. My father was brought up with the word coloured, his best friend is half black and used this word. It's only now he's in his 80s that he realised they prefer the term black. But because of his age and memory issues, he does occasionally forget. I have been brought up to use the word black. However my children pull me up on it as their school have told them to use the term brown. So they, including their black friend, use brown. Its always changing and adapting. I think what's important here is how a word is said. If it comes from a place of love then there are no issues, just a reminder of the preferred term is needed. Its not racist, just a generational thing. If it's said with spite then it's racist.

@Clawdy

Reading some comments on here, maybe I did sound a bit sanctimonious, but I didn't have time to think, I just reacted. We weren't sitting in a circle, so the whole group didn't hear, we were sitting on garden chairs in my garden. Interesting to hear people's views.

No, you did the right thing to call her out.

Interesting reading about the term " half" that's interesting to know.

Much depends on the person's intent. A person who has no wish to offend and is corrected will be grateful for the correction. Your friend didn't respond that way, but a different person who was keen to stand corrected could not be deemed racist, just in the process of learning, and we've all been there.

I always use the term mixed race nowadays, however one of my best friends (who is actually mixed race, white mum, black dad) hates the term, and refers to himself as half caste. Maybe it is a generation thing? We are in our late 40s so obviously when we were younger half caste was widely used.
I personally wouldn't use it now (even though it pisses my friend off lol)

If those words were not being used in an insulting way. why did you feel the need to "make an example of her" in front of the whole group?
Two days ago there was a thread about aggressive policing of parking in Blue Badge bays.
You were being just like one of those vigilantes.
If you had wanted to be constructive you would have continued the discussion and perhaps emphasised the words that you would have used. Then had a word one to one later.

@vivainsomnia

That in itself is racist, whether intentional or not This reminded me of something that happened last year in the office. One of the girls is always hot on spotting racism, was big on the black matters movement, offended that most of us didn't want to march, and pointed at one team member who has used the wrong word, telling the they were racist.

Then a few minutes later, as we were back talking about work, she used the word shit, immediately followed by 'excuse my French'...in front of a member of staff whose parents are French. When I pointed out to her that for someone so tuned to pick up racists amongst us, she might consider practicing what she was preaching. She went berserk, trying to justify it wasn't the same.

I think there are a lot of double standards amongst those who are quick to point out that someone else is racist.

Double standards? How was your co-worker racist?

Basically, calling out racism is seen as more offensive than actual racism. And learning to moderate your language is seen as a bigger hardship than having to live in a racist society.

@vivainsomnia your post is a masterclass in white supremacy whataboutism

and now starting a thread on social media faux innocently asking Was I unreasonable to say something? is almost begging to be congratulated.

Well, many people do this on mumsnet about other issues.

Eg: "I've just helped my neighbour with her shopping. She has no one else and I hope she's okay. Aibu for offering to do this?"

Or

"I've just rescued a hungry-looking cat, she's wrapped in a blanket and we're feeding her. Heres a picture of her [ as evidence of my good deed ]. Was I wrong to do this? Shall I take her to the vet?"

Cue comments like:
Well done OP
That was so lovely of you, OP.
You did a good thing OP, etc.

Do you also notice this and tell them they're asking to be congratulated? I only see people mention this virtue-signalling nonsense when it has to do with race? One wonders why.

@Auntienumber8

Person of colour is an American term and something I personally don’t like as one of those people.

Coloured has been deemed unacceptable for quite a while but it is possibly a generational issue with your friend at book club.

BAME and dual heritage are commonly used. I really don’t like BAME as it lumps every non white person together. Like some huge homogenous mass.

I think the thing that stands out for me is your friend is a smart arse with her retort.

A few months ago I patiently corrected my Dad (in his late 70s) on his use of the term 'coloured' explaining that BAME was the correct term (isn't biracial the pc noun for mixed heritage now?) anyway a few days later a government report was released saying that BAME shouldn't be used.... I haven't gone back to him on that one yet!

'Coloured' is outdated as far as I understand things, so I don't think you were BU, however I do wonder how come if that is wrong, 'person of colour' is OK.... are they not essentialy the same? I suppose it just highlights the confusion of modern language.

Furthermore, @Auntienumber8 says 'POC' is an American term and yet in America, there is an organisation called the NAACP: 'National Association for the Advancement of Colored People' which just again adds to the confusion. Now I know that body was formed in 1909, but should it not have considered a name change in view of what is being discussed here?

[quote GoodbyePorpoiseSpit]@vivainsomnia your post is a masterclass in white supremacy whataboutism[/quote]
This.

@ViceLikeBlip

Basically, calling out racism is seen as more offensive than actual racism. And learning to moderate your language is seen as a bigger hardship than having to live in a racist society.

No it isn't. "Calling out" racism is fine, but it's not effective if you humiliate and embarrass people while doing it. It's not ok, either. Most people who say these things aren't trying to be offensive, and your own self righteousness is not more important than their feelings. Talk to people, educate them and listen. That's what changes things. Embarassing people, making them feel small and stupid in public, does not. It only makes things worse.

A few months ago I patiently corrected my Dad (in his late 70s) on his use of the term 'coloured' explaining that BAME was the correct term (isn't biracial the pc noun for mixed heritage now?) anyway a few days later a government report was released saying that BAME shouldn't be used.... I haven't gone back to him on that one yet!

Loads of people don't like BAME, and bi-racial is not the same thing as either mixed race or mixed heritage, which are not the same thing anyway!
This is another reason why publicly educating others can be a minefield, you might be wrong in your own understanding anyway.

I only see people mention this virtue-signalling nonsense when it has to do with race?

A good 80% of posts on the extinction rebellion threads was exactly that.

I made a mistake once and used an out dated term. Someone corrected me and I was mortified. It was from confusion. A very racist person I knew referred to her neighbours as blacks. It was said it such a horrible way my mind thought black was racist, and grasping around for a polite version I said the wrong thing.

The difference was I apologised and made a note to never get it wrong again, I didn't argue about it.

I think you embarrassed her and she didn't like it so tried to be 'smart'. She should have apologised. You weren't wrong to correct her.

You were right to pull her up politely on her use of language. Whatever my age or time of life I would want to know if I’d said something offensive. Mixed race is perfectly acceptable this is how I describe myself. Mixed heritage I haven’t heard used in RL either, and to be honest I see it as a more specific/explicit level of detail than is general required in most conversations (eg you can be white and mixed heritage but that will mostly not come up unless somebody specially asks about your background)

I don't know the origins of half cast. When I was in primary school (nearly 40 now) so mid eighties, I remember being called half cast and not knowing what it was. When I asked my mum, she said I was not totally white, not totally dark, like a half cast shadow. Which I always found quite cute. I can remember liking it, and certainly in primary I called myself half cast after that. And mum obviously wasn't offended by it either. I didn't realise it wasn't completely wrong to say anymore, probably up to a couple of years ago when BLM really came to a forefront, more just thought that I hadn't heard it said for a long time. No more so than everything in the seventies was "groovy man" and well, no one says that anymore, it's just phased itself out.

It's probably got some horrible sinister origination, but not that I ever knew of. If I heard someone say it, I'd know now that you're not supposed too, but I don't think it's as obviously wrong as the N word, so I wouldn't jump on them for it.

@Blueleah

Depends how old she is. The politically correct words change so often it’s hard to keep up. Maybe 20 years ago it was pc to say coloured and half caste, you weren’t allowed to say black.

It definitely wasn't.

I'm in my 50s, it may have been OK in the 70s, but not since the 80s for sure.

I think the OP was right to pull her up. It may not have been deliberately racist, but no she shouldnt use the words coloured and half caste.

When I asked my mum, she said I was not totally white, not totally dark, like a half cast shadow. Which I always found quite cute

Your mum was wrong. It's CASTE not CAST.

"It is derived from the term caste, which comes from the Latin castus, meaning pure, and the derivative Portuguese and Spanish casta, meaning race. Terms such as half-caste, caste, quarter-caste and mix-breed were widely used by ethnographers throughout the British Empire to try to classify "the natives"

from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-caste

see also: www.refinery29.com/en-gb/half-caste-offensive-term

@Areyouseriousrightnow

You were right to pull her up politely on her use of language. Whatever my age or time of life I would want to know if I’d said something offensive. Mixed race is perfectly acceptable this is how I describe myself. Mixed heritage I haven’t heard used in RL either, and to be honest I see it as a more specific/explicit level of detail than is general required in most conversations (eg you can be white and mixed heritage but that will mostly not come up unless somebody specially asks about your background)

but it wasn't done politely...

I'm 36 and when we were growing up my parents always used the word half caste to refer to mixed race people. I honestly thought it was normal. I once dropped it into conversation when I was around 21, in my very first job, and a colleague literally SHRIEKED in front of the entire office that I was a racist. I was embarrassed, apologised profusely and explained that I had no idea that it was offensive. I've never used it since, but I will always remember my colleagues reaction to what was a simple mistake. Nothing wrong with quietly taking people aside and explaining instead of showing them up in front of everybody.

i dont think half caste was a term of abuse,
it is simply non pc