To tell friend she she shouldn't use these words?

[Clawdy]

Book group meeting last week, and one group member said she couldn't remember the name of a book she'd thought of choosing, but it was about two coloured girls and their halfcaste children. I said "Anne, you can't use those words" and she said "Why not, what words are you saying I should use?" I said "Black and mixed race" whereupon she said " Well, a mix of black and white is grey, should I say that?" and grinned at me uneasily. I turned away and started talking to someone else. Another member later said I had probably upset her, and maybe should have ignored her comments. What do you think? She was being racist, wasn't she? But I'd never heard her say anything like that in all the years I've known her.

SmileyClare she couldn't remember the name of the book or the author, and it didn't ring any bells with anyone else, so she had to choose another book!

I don't think it's racist, but ignorant. Words that may have seemed OK to use in the past are no longer acceptable. Some people don't know the correct terms to use and there is nothing stopping them finding out what are the preferred words, but I've been told that describing people as black and mixed race is wrong also.

You did the right thing in calling this out. Yes, perhaps you could have worded slightly better than “you can’t” but your choice of words pale into insignificance compared to their very poor word choice.

i dont think half caste was a term of abuse, it is simply non pc

This is such a cop-out. People talk about PC language in the same way they use the term woke. As if it is irrelevant, pointless, made up and anyone involved is simply virtue signalling.

If you look at the history of the term and how it came in to usage and understood what it actually meant, you would realise it is a bullshit phrase that speaks volumes about the people using it. It is what people use as a cover for the fact they still think we should call people cripples. These are also people who insist it is all just freedom of speech, and that anyone should be free to offend anyone they like and people just have to get over it.

The change in terminology over the years comes from people who are part of a group, speaking up and letting others know that using that word or that term not only affects them personally, but it affects how other people view them. Sometimes it is because the very word itself has a historic connection that is really unpleasant. Another reason we keep having to replace words is, over time, they have developed a negative connotation. Until we start treating minority groups much better and stop blaming them for their problems, and all of society’s ills, whichever word is used, it will develop a negative connotation.

Language changes, language evolves and often that is because people realised the language being used was not right. I find it impossible to believe that grandfather of the 70s who insists on using words which are considered really offensive today, is incapable of understanding that language has changed. If this were the case, that man would still be saying ‘far out’ and ‘groovy’. What has actually happened is that he has ignored the decades of discussion about why these things have changed because he decided it wasn’t important enough for him to bother about.

but I've been told that describing people as black and mixed race is wrong also.

By whom?

Will also point out that, the same excuse people use for not being able to keep up with what language is right, is also used by men pretending there is too fine a line between being friendly towards a woman and sexually assaulting her.

i dont think the votes are voting that the ex teacher was ok to use those words but some people are voting that the op may be Showed her up publically

The intent behind the words is irrelevant in my opinion. She used racist language. It needs to be challenged! And the fact she argued back instead of being mortified and apologising to the group shows she is happy with her racist language. You can still challenge politely.

If you don’t challenge this kind of stuff, nothing ever changes.

I think you were right to tell her those were not the terms used now and the way she responded was ridiculously childish.

I agree with those who say it's a minefield though because so many people do or don't like certain terms. BAME is a case in point, supposed to be PC but a lot of people don't like it at all, mixed race is another, some people are fine with it others don't like it and say it should be dual heritage. You can just never tell what people are going to be offended by so I avoid saying any of it as generally you really don't need to. I am fascinated by people's heritage though as a keen traveller and have asked people I've met travelling what their heritage was and often they like talking about it - I'd be more reluctant to ask in the UK though as people here seem more ready to take offense at that sort of thing.

BAME is a case in point, supposed to be PC but a lot of people don't like it at all

It isn’t a minefield and it doesn’t take seconds to take a look and see what the objections are. You would never refer to a person as BAME. The terminology is useful as a shorthand when referring to, for example, an assessment of statistics for something that affects B.A.M.E communities. Referring to a person as BAME is the same as referring to someone as “a disabled”. That has always been the case, it isn’t new and it isn’t being “PC”

I agree that some people will prefer to use different ways of describing themselves, but to pretend the whole thing is a minefield is laughable.

@BoredZelda

BAME is a case in point, supposed to be PC but a lot of people don't like it at all

It isn’t a minefield and it doesn’t take seconds to take a look and see what the objections are. You would never refer to a person as BAME. The terminology is useful as a shorthand when referring to, for example, an assessment of statistics for something that affects B.A.M.E communities. Referring to a person as BAME is the same as referring to someone as “a disabled”. That has always been the case, it isn’t new and it isn’t being “PC”

I agree that some people will prefer to use different ways of describing themselves, but to pretend the whole thing is a minefield is laughable.

Yes, exactly. It’s a written usage, handy shorthand for reports, stats, journalism. It’s not anything people actually say in conversation, far less a self-descriptor. The Guardian style guide points out that in its full sense BAME includes white minority groups, so not to use it when you’re referring to black or Asian people exclusively, and vice versa.

Though as regards usage changes, one thing I’ve noticed fairly recently is some individual writers for the Guardian capitalising ‘Black’. I think Associated Press (US) now does this routinely.

t's mixed heritage. "Mixed race" is an offensive and outdated term in the same way "colored" is. The fact that people of mixed heritage describe themselves as "mixed race" doesn't make it OK - in the past people used "colored" to describe themselves, some people still use the n-word to describe themselves today

This is exactly what I was talking about, someone being very confidently entirely wrong about terminology!
Mixed heritage does not equal mixed race, you can be mixed heritage and be white. You can be mixed heritage and be asian, you can be mixed heritage and be black...and so on. It doesn't mean mixed race.

Similarly some people say you have to use biracial...but thats only ok for people who are actually BI racial. Many mixed people are more than 2 things.

Those loudly berating others for getting it wrong and then getting it wrong, should probably have a word with themselves. Especially shouting that mixed race people are using the wrong word to describe themselves...do fuck off

Her reaction wasn't great.

But it's probably best if you choose more neutral, upbeat books to discuss in the group going forwards to avoid controversy?

@BoredZelda

but I've been told that describing people as black and mixed race is wrong also.

By whom?

There are certainly arguments that the whole concept of "race" is a nonsense and therefore might offend people. It doesn't have a scientific basis, seems to come from colonial ideas of categorising people, and is impossible to define. If we are part of a race then it's the human race.

And if race offends you then mixed-race is worse.

@BoredZelda

i dont think half caste was a term of abuse, it is simply non pc

This is such a cop-out. People talk about PC language in the same way they use the term woke. As if it is irrelevant, pointless, made up and anyone involved is simply virtue signalling.

If you look at the history of the term and how it came in to usage and understood what it actually meant, you would realise it is a bullshit phrase that speaks volumes about the people using it. It is what people use as a cover for the fact they still think we should call people cripples. These are also people who insist it is all just freedom of speech, and that anyone should be free to offend anyone they like and people just have to get over it.

The change in terminology over the years comes from people who are part of a group, speaking up and letting others know that using that word or that term not only affects them personally, but it affects how other people view them. Sometimes it is because the very word itself has a historic connection that is really unpleasant. Another reason we keep having to replace words is, over time, they have developed a negative connotation. Until we start treating minority groups much better and stop blaming them for their problems, and all of society’s ills, whichever word is used, it will develop a negative connotation.

Language changes, language evolves and often that is because people realised the language being used was not right. I find it impossible to believe that grandfather of the 70s who insists on using words which are considered really offensive today, is incapable of understanding that language has changed. If this were the case, that man would still be saying ‘far out’ and ‘groovy’. What has actually happened is that he has ignored the decades of discussion about why these things have changed because he decided it wasn’t important enough for him to bother about.

This is spot on - thank you @BoredZelda

Pretty shocking that there are people who are defending Anne's language yet if she's used bio mum instead of mum or Karen instead of bitch then they wouldn't stop to ask if she knew that bio mum and Karen was unacceptable language. The rules are clearly different if white women are offended.

The OP said that it wasn't some sort of loud humiliating experience in front of the group. How many people would quietly contact Anne later if she'd used Karen? How many people would have correct a man using Karen?

Person of Colour being acceptable in America makes things complicated for people in the UK who don't use coloured any more and it personally makes me cringe a little when I see it written on Internet posts.

I've seen some posts suggest alternatives like dual rather than mixed but what happens if someone has parents who are both mixed but different heritages/races? Does that person become quad?

Mixed race and Mixed heritage is not the same thing. If your parents are white and from France and Ireland you'd be mixed heritage but not mixed race. I am personally happy with mixed or mixed race. I've never heard mixed parentage but I would say that categorises me fine.

@Blueleah

Depends how old she is. The politically correct words change so often it’s hard to keep up. Maybe 20 years ago it was pc to say coloured and half caste, you weren’t allowed to say black.

It's always been "allowed" to say black. 🙄 Calling someone a black c*nt or any other pejorative, not so much.

@DottyHarmer

I am certainly not defending Anne’s language. But - I take issue with the self-appointed “calling outers” and “educators”.

I wish a spike would sear up someone’s bottom every time they even think about using the phrases. It’s one thing to have a quiet word if you think - nay, know - someone has inadvertently used an offensive term (if they’ve done it on purpose, why bother as they’re hardly going to welcome a reprimand) but quite another to be all class monitor and report a mistake, basking in one’s own righteousness. Ugh.

Well said!

@Blueleah

Depends how old she is. The politically correct words change so often it’s hard to keep up. Maybe 20 years ago it was pc to say coloured and half caste, you weren’t allowed to say black.

No, 20 years ago, it really wasn’t. Maybe 50 years ago…

@Rumplestrumpet

FFS threads about racism on MN are so depressing. So many people jump to excuse or justify the racist language and are more concerned about how the person using the language feels. Assuming that person is white and lives in the UK they have so many privileges and advantages and get to go about their daily life without having to think about race 99% of the time. People who could be offended by the language don't have that luxury.

You were right to correct her for using terminology which has been widely unacceptable and offensive for decades. Her response shows she doesn't care about getting it right anyway.

As for what terms "should" be used, it's clear there's no one single set of vocabulary that everyone is comfortable with. Generally speaking "black" "British Asian" and "people of colour" are broadly accepted but we should all be willing to be corrected if someone is offended by the language we use.

Fair comment, but still nobody has explained this to me: how come if I saw a film last night and then told my friend about it saying: '....the lead actor was a person of colour' it would be fine, but if I said '...the lead actor was coloured', it would be so, so wrong?

Who gets to decide? Because as so many people have said in this thread, if you use the un-PC term, people jump on you and for the older generation - my parents for example - they mean no harm, it is just they can't keep up with what is right and what is wrong.

As I said ealier today, I had to educate my Dad to use BAME a few months ago and then shortly afterwards a government report on race stated that term shouldn't be used anymore. So now I'm thinking: do I go back and tell him that? or what?

Can I just pick you up on something else you typed: just because a person lives in the UK and is white doesn't automatically make them 'privileged'. Whenever I see a homeless person in my region of the country, they are never BAME - their family and community wouldn't allow it. Nor can white people in the UK go about their lives ignorant about race, quite the opposite in fact. Because as I have said, if you say the wrong thing you can cause offence, even when none is intended & some people are always on the look-out to correct verbal mistakes, as a form of 'virtue signalling'.

I do understand the complexity of language though and I speak from experience (but not on race). My DS was showing unusual signs during his early development and some tests and observations were undertaken. Eventually we were told he was 'on the spectrum' - this term was just becoming the norm and replacing the more often used (at the time) 'he/she is autistic'. In this case I much prefer 'on the spectrum' to the older term, because it highlights that there are a complex range of issues associated with this. However, if someone noticed certain behaviour that my son still displays, even as a young adult e.g. repetitive actions and difficulty in social situations and they described him as 'autistic', I wouldn't jump on them for that, or correct them, I would just let it lie.

@Blueleah

Depends how old she is. The politically correct words change so often it’s hard to keep up. Maybe 20 years ago it was pc to say coloured and half caste, you weren’t allowed to say black.

My DM is in her eighties and very occasionally has said something that was politically correct before she retired but isn't now. The difference is, her reaction is always, "I'm really sorry, I didn't realise, what is the correct word?" and she doesn't use the word again. When she does make a mistake, it will be something uncommon that she has probably had no need to speak of or think about in decades eg using Siamese twins for conjoined twins. I can't believe there is anyone with their full faculties who doesn't know that "coloured" is offensive, unless they don't care.

Ditto a friend who spent his childhood in the UK as an expat (so not a native English speaker) in the late seventies/eighties and moved back here about 10 years ago. He was horrified to find out that he was using offensive words he thought were polite.

People do sometimes make mistakes but it is their reaction that counts.

@chesirecat99 I keep reading the same things over and over, yes 'coloured' (colored in the US) is offensive & yet 'person of colour' is not. How come one is and one isn't and who gets to decide?

[quote patkinney]@chesirecat99 I keep reading the same things over and over, yes 'coloured' (colored in the US) is offensive & yet 'person of colour' is not. How come one is and one isn't and who gets to decide?[/quote]
Nobody is this obtuse.

who gets to decide?

The people you are describing get to decide.
It really is that simple.
However illogical you personally find some of the decisions they aren't your decisions to make.