Evacuation form Afghanistan- women?

[Aprilinspringtimeshower]

So saw this article and the accompanying photo www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/17/afghanistan-striking-image-appears-to-show-640-people-fleeing-kabul-in-packed-us-military-plane?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

This is what concerns me- where are the women? The overwhelming majority of people on that plane are men, adult males. There are a few women and some children.
Yet it is the women who are in greatest danger. Young girls, older women. Single women who won’t be able to support themselves once stopped from going outside unaccompanied, professional women who will be banned from working .

Everyone said that the war was about women’s right and way of life. And that what is happening now is a danger to the rights and well-being of women.

Surely it is women who are the ones that need to get out of the country safely and be offered asylum- so where are they? Why wasn’t that plane full of mostly women or even equal amounts of women and the men that accompany them.

I don’t hear the government saying anything to target protection and refuge for women specifically. And to young girls and women who are in real danger

AIBU that it is always the men that get the preference, and that really no one cares enough to actually provide proper protection to the women and girls ..it’s just all sound bites and noble words

@FemmePerdue

I'm not sure how many people in this thread have lived in war zones but all this the men will be executed instantly stuff is true. What is also true is the reason the men's stories are told: because they are men.

The mere fact we don't know the stories of the women in places were men are the story tellers is a thing all by itself.

One way (of many) of honouring those who have been or will killed, is to continue to be the voices of those who have been raped and who minimise their ordeals because of the ongoing murders.

'We don't know'? There are plenty all over the place... have a quick Google

Would I have left my children if the roles were reversed and I was the one who had the risky job? I can't imagine it but equally I suspect my husband would have been screaming at me to go. Doubt I'd have been strong enough to stand a chance of getting on though.

And to be clear for those who don't get it: a lot of women will be connected to the westerners in some way for example as maids, cleaners or nannies.
You most likely have never heard of how dangerous life is about to become for them. Their roles were most likely not story worthy. A different type of glass ceiling.
Their stories are not going to be told by their men - until their men are safe.

Isn't being everything to our children a recent cultural norm too though, and a bit of a first- world luxury? Look at all the Filipinas who leave children with extended family to work here and make a better life for them. At labourers in Dubai sending cash home.

Send your wife and children to relative safety with (say) her elder brother who lives a quiet life and hasn't dabbled in politics. Get to the airport. Get on the plane. Get to safety. Get them out. If that's an option, rather than expose them to danger in the streets and airport, life in a refugee camp, people smugglers and channel crossings, do you think men - and women? - should choose differently?

I agree with that FemmePerdue. There absolutely are women at risk as well and I agree their stories won't get heard. It doesn't stop the fact that the men on that plane aren't 'cowardly' for being on there. There are no good outcomes here sadly.

I've not read the full thread but wanted to come on to share this link, it's template letter which is sent to your MP, takes seconds to complete.

action.helprefugees.org/page/88374/action/1

@LooksGood

Isn't being everything to our children a recent cultural norm too though, and a bit of a first- world luxury? Look at all the Filipinas who leave children with extended family to work here and make a better life for them. At labourers in Dubai sending cash home.

Send your wife and children to relative safety with (say) her elder brother who lives a quiet life and hasn't dabbled in politics. Get to the airport. Get on the plane. Get to safety. Get them out. If that's an option, rather than expose them to danger in the streets and airport, life in a refugee camp, people smugglers and channel crossings, do you think men - and women? - should choose differently?

Agree with this too. I wouldn't blame any parent for going if the child could be left with extended family.

You are wrong. That isn't what has happened. My comment wasn't about British vs Afghan men.it was factual and followed with my thoughts. This has been gone over again and again. As for people disagreeing with me that has been gone over too. There was no need for everyone who disagreed to individually comment back to me when it is a group talk with more people who posted in line with me and when I have already said we can agree to disagree. So by continuing to comment individually it shows people only want to have an argument and gang up instead of contributing to the group talking about it without commenting to only one person in a comment.

LifesNotEnidBlyton if you look at the thread, the only person still talking about the comments you made is you.

Reddit is full of American soldiers talking about the interpreters and drivers they knew from tours in Afghanistan. Many are saying that it was a given if Afghanistan was taken by the Taliban, those men would be killed instantly. Too many of them have already been abandoned by the foreign commanders they helped, leaving them to certain death - I don't begrudge any of them who manage to escape.

Not on the basis of their sex they don't, which doesn't make it not awful, but a man is not at risk solely by virtue of being a man, a man has not had his humanity taken from him and been made the property of a male relative, the situation for women in Arlfghanistan is dire. Not only women who aided the military, not only women who object to the regime, not only women who resist the regime, all women by virtue of their sex, regardless of job, or status, by virtue of their biological sex their autonomy has been stolen from them. The oppression of women by this regime is systemic and total. This is distinct to how men are treated by this regime and it is disingenuous at the very least to claim otherwise.

@LifesNotEnidBlyton

You are wrong. That isn't what has happened. My comment wasn't about British vs Afghan men.it was factual and followed with my thoughts. This has been gone over again and again. As for people disagreeing with me that has been gone over too. There was no need for everyone who disagreed to individually comment back to me when it is a group talk with more people who posted in line with me and when I have already said we can agree to disagree. So by continuing to comment individually it shows people only want to have an argument and gang up instead of contributing to the group talking about it without commenting to only one person in a comment.

You said it yourself, it’s a forum , people can post what they like - except when they reply/quote you, then they’re ‘ganging up’? The thread’s moved on, everyone’s forgotten you now so you can have your tea in peace 😇

Don't know why quote is not working, but thst reply was @tractorandheadphones

@Normaigai

Would I have left my children if the roles were reversed and I was the one who had the risky job? I can't imagine it but equally I suspect my husband would have been screaming at me to go. Doubt I'd have been strong enough to stand a chance of getting on though.

I don't think they are fighting their way on to the military planes, the evacuation of the interpreters etc are planned and organised and I think the civilian flights have stopped.

@SionnachRua are any of those men talking about their maids or cleaners?
Did they even know they had them? Did they even see the women who worked for it with them?
Brave men telling stories about brave men in war zones are telling the truth. A story as old as time.
But the level of instant death or rape the women face is unknown. They don't exist in these stories.

Yes, it's a group talk - not just everyone shouting into the void. Someone says something, then someone else adds something or agrees or disagrees, then the first person might choose to defend what they said or clarify it or concede a point made by someone else, and so it goes on. You cannot come on a public forum, comment on an emotive issue and then demand that everyone ignore your comment.

The reason people are going 'over and over' it is that you're not engaging with any sort of on-topic discussion - just telling everyone to stop commenting on what you posted.

Personally, I am hugely uncomfortable with your comment about 'these men' when referring to swathes of foreign refugees. You keep saying that you weren't referring specifically to Afghan men, but it is implicit in your comment that you included them. Every one of those men is an individual with a story and a family and a set of circumstances specific to them. To lump them together negatively as 'these men' when referring to them leaving their family behind to face danger without them, and then to compare them to British men is textbook othering, and it's particularly unfair when we're all commenting safely from behind our computer screens with absolutely no knowledge of what the people we're glibly discussing have been through and are still going through. Maybe they are a homogenous mass of selfish wife-abandoners. I doubt it though.

You keep saying 'it was a small comment.' There's no such thing as a small comment on such a massive issue and it's disingenuous to try and downplay it like that. If it's your opinion, then it's your opinion. Own it. Defend it or clarify it if you want to, but don't try and silence other people who see it as part of a much larger and troubling issue, ie the way we are being manipulated into viewing some groups and cultures as intrinsically 'other'.

I have been polite, as have other posters, but this is getting a bit ridiculous. People are commenting on what you've said, which is exactly what these forums are for. If you don't want to engage with them, then don't, but everyone is absolutely entitled to comment.

@Wheretoeattweenandteen

Life is not Enid Blyton, the networks and the way things are structured are very different in counties like Afghanistan. The more modern richer families may be looser and more progressive but otherwise women are controlled and Co ordinated by family hierarchy and "uncles" etc.

In a sad article yesterday, the man a liberated girl feared the most knocking on her door after the fall of the kabul was her uncle who married her off age 12 to a cousin (financial Times)

There are layers upon layers of repression.
As pp have said I'm sure some of families are genuine and lovely.
Like tyere are any where in the world.

I am estranged from my dB and he's the absolute last person I'd want to have any jurisdiction over me. It would make my life miserable.

For men who have not worked for the West, I really don't think it could be argued that their lives will be as bad as for the girls.

They whole world, the un everyone is crying out for the girls!!

For men who have not worked for the West, I really don't think it could be argued that their lives will be as bad as for the girls. That's why they are prioritising the men who worked for the west and then women and girls. Although I have to say I'm not sure many women are going to be happy leaving little sons behind when they can escape with their daughters.

@Queenelsarules

Not on the basis of their sex they don't, which doesn't make it not awful, but a man is not at risk solely by virtue of being a man, a man has not had his humanity taken from him and been made the property of a male relative, the situation for women in Arlfghanistan is dire. Not only women who aided the military, not only women who object to the regime, not only women who resist the regime, all women by virtue of their sex, regardless of job, or status, by virtue of their biological sex their autonomy has been stolen from them. The oppression of women by this regime is systemic and total. This is distinct to how men are treated by this regime and it is disingenuous at the very least to claim otherwise.

I don't think anyone's suggesting otherwise. Does that mean a man who is is at risk because of their job has to give up their place to a woman who is at risk because of her sex? How does that work through - there are young boys on that plane. Should they have had to give up their space to a woman? If not, why not? There's a strong argument a young boy left with grandparents is safer than the average Afghan woman at the moment.

Note I am not saying that they should have refused to take children (of course they shouldn't!), just that there is no good outcome here. There aren't enough places for everyone who deserves one. Blaming the people who got places for taking then is wrong.

[quote FemmePerdue]@SionnachRua are any of those men talking about their maids or cleaners?
Did they even know they had them? Did they even see the women who worked for it with them?
Brave men telling stories about brave men in war zones are telling the truth. A story as old as time.
But the level of instant death or rape the women face is unknown. They don't exist in these stories.[/quote]
That seems strange to me, I've seen various Afghan women being interviewed. I saw an interview today with a young female journalist who is in hiding. I've also seen female politicians being interviewed. So I think women's stories are being included.

@Normaigai

LifesNotEnidBlyton if you look at the thread, the only person still talking about the comments you made is you.

Actually it isn't. My comment then was to Siepie but "quote" failed. She/he commented to me individually just a few comments up the thread, so you are wrong.

It's also worth remembering that what we are discussing is a photo. It's not just something someone saw in passing and told everyone else about. Someone took the photo, selected it from among all the others no doubt taken at the same time, and printed it or posted it on social media or in the media. There's always going to be an agenda when someone chooses to circulate a picture in a situation like this. That agenda might be an honest 'Look. Isn't this terrible. What can we do?' Or it might be an implied 'Look at these awful, cowardly men abandoning their women to save their own skins. Weren't we quite right to leave them all to it?'

And as another poster commented, it might not even be a planeload of Afghan men.

ancientgran, there have been (reputable) links provided earlier on the thread that some people did force themselves on the plane. That's why it was as full as it was.

I think the position for the people who were granted visas and directed to be on the plane is pretty obvious but the same point applies - of my husband was given a seat and not me and the children, by far the most sensible thing would have been for him to take it. How does him refusing help me and the children?

a lot of women will be connected to the westerners in some way for example as maids, cleaners or nannies.

Hopefully those jobs will be held in such contempt that they're not really considered jobs and not worth a name on a list or a bullet.

@Normaigai women are actively making that decision to give up their spaces for men and boys because they see death as worse than rape.
And using the phrase "because of her sex" hides the fact that it is her sex which has made her relationship with the westerners invisible - if she is one of the women in imminent danger.
It seems what women consider a normal risk calculation becomes uncomfortable if the sexes are reversed?

LifesNotEnidBlyton After my comment. I'm generally brilliant but predicting the future isn't in my skill set.

She also only commented after you commented on her post! If you don't want people to keep arguing with you then stop arguing with them. If you want to keep arguing with people fine, I don't care, but then stop complaining people are unfairly picking on you.